The Value of a Plus, or My 5 Minutes with Mark Salzberg

[physics-fan3.14]

So, one of the things that I did today at the FUN show was take advantage of NGC's generous offer of a one-on-one consultation with Mark Salzberg. You could bring three coins and he would discuss them with you - why they graded the way they did, and why you were right or wrong in your opinion of them. I had one coin in particular that I definitely wanted to discuss - one that I have shown here plenty of times. It was my 1963 Franklin (bought as a 65FBL, resubmitted for a 65* FBL, and now....) So, talking with him was very informative. He talked through the plusses and the minuses of the coin, saying mostly exactly what I expected to hear. The coin is shown below for your viewing pleasure. The result of the conversation was that the coin just barely misses 66, by thiiiiiis much. The tiny tick on the obverse rim at about 3 o'clock is pretty much the only thing holding it back. But, he did agree that it was a 65+ * FBL - and changed it on the spot. He took it, and they are giving it the new grade right now, and I should have it back tomorrow. Thanks yet again, NGC, for a job well done!

 

So, question - how do you put a value on a coin with a population of 1 and only 1 higher (at 66 FBL). I'm sure the 66FBL doesn't have the eye appeal of this one, though. I have no intention of selling this coin, but for insurance purposes I need a realistic value. I bought the coin as a 65FBL for $1350, and the 66FBL is listed at $17k. How much of a premium does a + usually get over its non-plussed counterparts? That is to say - if this coin were to go to the auction block tomorrow, what do you think it would go for?

 

[jerseycat10]

Number one, that is an incredibly eye appealing coin.

 

Number two, the rule of thumb i use, based on the + graded coins I've seen, is to add 25% of the difference between 65 and 66 to your fmv. However since 66 for this coin is top pop, ymmv.

[jom]

As an aside (not having really anything to do with this coin): What's the point of this precision grading if you still have these huge price jumps?

 

Besides, 20 years from now after you've sold it and Mark Salsberg has gone to the great coin grading room in the sky some TPG will grade it MS66. Hell, you could end up sending this to PCGS tomorrow and they might grade it 66.

 

As a scientist physics-fan, don't you find it incredibly odd that our grading scales have this kind of precision but at the same time grading itself is not even accurate or consistent? It's like using a ruler that has 1/8 scales on it while trying to measure the length of a car.......that's going by at 70 MPH.

 

Sorry for the diversion but as a "scientist" (of sorts...I'm an electrical engineer) this has always bugged the cr*p out of me.

 

jom

[robec1347]

For comparative purposes only I took a trip to the PCGS site. Even though they have neither a 66 FBL or 65+FBL, they do have a price listed in the guide. I have no idea how they arrive at their price or if it would even be close.

 

Of course your 65+FBL isn't the run of the mill 65+. The eye appeal far out shadows the grade and certainly adds a premium.

 

 

 

PCGS Prices

 

MS66 FBL - $15,000

 

MS65 FBL - $1450

 

MS65+ FBL - $2250

 

The fact that the grade is as close to a 66 as it is a 65, doesn't impact the price as much towards 66 levels as one would think. I have the same problem with a couple of MPLs.

[Walkerfan]

I can't wait to talk to Mark Salzberg and GREAT story!!!

[Kamillion]

i would value the coin at 2,500 minimum.

[bochiman]

That's cool!

Not only the upgrade on the coin, but sitting there and chatting over the coins with a top grader!

 

Excellent!

[ultra-crepidarian]

Great story; it is an attractive coin.

 

This is exactly the type of coin that I think would benefit from a CAC sticker. When CAC evaluates a coin they ignore the star and plus and sticker the coin based on its numerical grade. However, most people seem not to be aware of this and feel that the CAC sticker validates the coin’s entire designation.

 

I think the CAC designation would validate the grade to PCGS True Believers and increase what the coin would bring at auction. Of course, if you are not planning to auction the coin then there is no imperative to send it to CAC.

 

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Ultra - from John Albanese himself, the CAC sticker does indeed verify the Star and the Plus (as well as the FBL). However, CAC uses PCGS standards for FBL, so it is useless in my opinion.

[MarkFeld]

Ultra - from John Albanese himself, the CAC sticker does indeed verify the Star and the Plus (as well as the FBL). However, CAC uses PCGS standards for FBL, so it is useless in my opinion.

 

CAC verification does NOT validate plus grades, only the numerical grade without the plus. And the same goes for the star. In other words, the bids that CAC places for CAC coins are not higher for plus grade coins or star coins.

[Mokiechan]

Ultra - from John Albanese himself, the CAC sticker does indeed verify the Star and the Plus (as well as the FBL). However, CAC uses PCGS standards for FBL, so it is useless in my opinion.

 

CAC verification does NOT validate plus grades, only the numerical grade without the plus. And the same goes for the star. In other words, the bids that CAC places for CAC coins are not higher for plus grade coins or star coins.

 

That.s interesting, I was under the impression that adding the CAC sticker enhanced the value above the normal FMV of a same-graded unstickered coin. Maybe only to other collectors but not CAC?

 

Great Thread, very informative.

 

Later,

Malcolm

[Walkerfan]

Jason--

 

I really like that Franklin!

 

How much did this cost if anything?

 

How long did you have to wait before speaking with Mark S.?

 

Sounds like a great opportunity and proves again why NGC is the best in my book.

[Schatzy]

Great Story....Congrats on the +!!

[MarkFeld]

Ultra - from John Albanese himself, the CAC sticker does indeed verify the Star and the Plus (as well as the FBL). However, CAC uses PCGS standards for FBL, so it is useless in my opinion.

 

CAC verification does NOT validate plus grades, only the numerical grade without the plus. And the same goes for the star. In other words, the bids that CAC places for CAC coins are not higher for plus grade coins or star coins.

 

That.s interesting, I was under the impression that adding the CAC sticker enhanced the value above the normal FMV of a same-graded unstickered coin. Maybe only to other collectors but not CAC?

 

Great Thread, very informative.

 

Later,

Malcolm

 

Often, a CAC sticker does enhance the liquidity and/or market value of a coin. But that can be a different matter from whether the sticker pertains to an opinion of a plus grade from NGC or PCGS or a star designation from NGC.

[physics-fan3.14]

Jason--

 

I really like that Franklin!

 

How much did this cost if anything?

 

How long did you have to wait before speaking with Mark S.?

 

Sounds like a great opportunity and proves again why NGC is the best in my book.

 

There were three people in line in front of me when I showed up at the NGC table. We were limited to 3 coins max to discuss with Mark, so I waited maybe about 5-10 minutes. But it was no big deal, because everyone in line was talking coins and showing what they were going to talk about. When Mark corrected the grade, he had them re-slab it for free.

[leeg]

When Mark upgraded the coin,

 

he had them re-slab it for free.

 

Very nice!

[mtnstyne]

Very nice coin and story. I would think that in this case the "plus" designation can't be calculated using a standard formula such as 25% of the difference from 65 to 66.

 

I think a formula like that applies to say an MS64+ when there are several in the grade and several MS65 and higher coins of a specific date/mm. Not to mention the multiple designations and eye appeal on yours. I think it would go much closer to the MS66 value but either way it is out of my league. (thumbs u

[Crohnos01]

Very cool and great story physics. I would guess the story is worth as much as the coin to you at this point. I don't know if people do write UPS for display with their coins or not typically, but I think I might if I were you in this case. It makes the history of the coin just that much more alive IMHO.

[physics-fan3.14]

Crohnos - I don't know if you've seen my Registry set or not, but I definitely do write-ups. And I keep writing, and writing.... I'm very proud of my set, winner of the Best Presented Set in 2008. It is linked below in my Signature, and this story will definitely be added to it.

[Walkerfan]

Jason--

 

I really like that Franklin!

 

How much did this cost if anything?

 

How long did you have to wait before speaking with Mark S.?

 

Sounds like a great opportunity and proves again why NGC is the best in my book.

 

There were three people in line in front of me when I showed up at the NGC table. We were limited to 3 coins max to discuss with Mark, so I waited maybe about 5-10 minutes. But it was no big deal, because everyone in line was talking coins and showing what they were going to talk about. When Mark corrected the grade, he had them re-slab it for free.

 

How awesome! Thanks for the info, Jason!!

[Crohnos01]

Thanks for pointing out the links on your signature Physics... I hadn't realized they were links (duh). Thank you also for the explaination of FBL... I had been wondering about that...

 

Wow, I am learning so much about this stuff from you guys; I really appreciate it.

 

I wonder if you could indulge me a bit more though. I am impressed but unaware of how one goes about putting together a set such as you have with your Franklins for competition. You mention in your write up I believe that you worked on it 8 years, but how do you go about finding these coins? Once you obtain them, how do you know if what you have is worthy of competition? And once you have a set worthy of competetion, how do you put it up for consideration of competition? Do you have to send the set somewhere? (YIKES)

 

Sorry, I know these are newbie questions.. thanks for your indulgence

[Kamillion]

i think it has to do with the ngc registry, which i also am oblivious too.

[MJ]

Ultra - from John Albanese himself, the CAC sticker does indeed verify the Star and the Plus (as well as the FBL). However, CAC uses PCGS standards for FBL, so it is useless in my opinion.

 

CAC verification does NOT validate plus grades, only the numerical grade without the plus. And the same goes for the star. In other words, the bids that CAC places for CAC coins are not higher for plus grade coins or star coins.

 

This is correct Mr Feld. Same with + coins from across the street. CAC does not sticker based on + or * on the holder. It ignores them. MJ

 

According to Albanese, CAC will continue to evaluate submissions, and determine whether to award stickers to those coins, strictly in the context of the basic numerical grades assigned by either PCGS or NGC. He said it will disregard any additional descriptive words or symbols.

“We don’t want buyers and sellers to get the impression that by stickering a coin, CAC is confirming someone else’s ‘PQ’ designation,” Albanese said.

CAC makes a market in coins that it has stickered, and its disregard of PQ-type designations will be reflected in its buying and selling prices.

“For example, CAC’s bid price for an 1892-O Barber quarter graded MS65 is $1,150,” Albanese said. “If the coin was graded PQ and had a CAC sticker, our buy price would remain the same – $1,150. If it had a star plus our sticker, we’d still pay $1,150.

[Walkerfan]

i think it has to do with the ngc registry, which i also am oblivious too.

 

Registry competition is all done online. The only stipulation (for the NGC Registry) is that the coins are graded by either NGC or PCGS. (PCGS) only allows THEIR coins that are graded by their service into their registry.

[Catbert]

Ultra - from John Albanese himself, the CAC sticker does indeed verify the Star and the Plus (as well as the FBL). However, CAC uses PCGS standards for FBL, so it is useless in my opinion.

 

CAC verification does NOT validate plus grades, only the numerical grade without the plus. And the same goes for the star. In other words, the bids that CAC places for CAC coins are not higher for plus grade coins or star coins.

 

This is correct Mr Feld. Same with + coins from across the street. CAC does not sticker based on + or * on the holder. It ignores them. MJ

 

According to Albanese, CAC will continue to evaluate submissions, and determine whether to award stickers to those coins, strictly in the context of the basic numerical grades assigned by either PCGS or NGC. He said it will disregard any additional descriptive words or symbols.

“We don’t want buyers and sellers to get the impression that by stickering a coin, CAC is confirming someone else’s ‘PQ’ designation,” Albanese said.

 

edit - I can't find that thread and the e-mail must be at my work computer.

CAC makes a market in coins that it has stickered, and its disregard of PQ-type designations will be reflected in its buying and selling prices.

“For example, CAC’s bid price for an 1892-O Barber quarter graded MS65 is $1,150,” Albanese said. “If the coin was graded PQ and had a CAC sticker, our buy price would remain the same – $1,150. If it had a star plus our sticker, we’d still pay $1,150.

 

Very interesting MJ and Mark. I sent an e-mail to John about 1-2 years ago asking specifically whether the sticker included the star designation and he replied "sure". I posted that e-mail response in a thread on this board. His response surprised me because I felt that they should only validate the numeric grade and not the highly subjective eye appeal designation. Perhaps he's changed his mind since then. If I can find the old thread, I'll post a link or an excerpt.

 

edit - I can't find the thread or the e-mail. I believe the e-mail is on my work computer.

[Chris1976]

Catbert,

 

His reply of "sure" could of been in a sarcastic manor. I would think that since I am sure you are not the only person to have emailed him asking that same question.

[Catbert]

Catbert,

 

His reply of "sure" could of been in a sarcastic manor. I would think that since I am sure you are not the only person to have emailed him asking that same question.

 

No, I asked a very specific question and his reply wasn't sarcastic at all. There was more to the e-mail and I'll post it again assuming I can find it.

[physics-fan3.14]

Catbert,

 

His reply of "sure" could of been in a sarcastic manor. I would think that since I am sure you are not the only person to have emailed him asking that same question.

 

No, I asked a very specific question and his reply wasn't sarcastic at all. There was more to the e-mail and I'll post it again assuming I can find it.

 

I remember that thread and that email - and it is what I was basing my former statement on. It seemed a rather flippant answer that he had not considered at the time, and maybe now that he has put more consideration into it, he has changed his mind.

[physics-fan3.14]

As an aside (not having really anything to do with this coin): What's the point of this precision grading if you still have these huge price jumps?

 

Besides, 20 years from now after you've sold it and Mark Salsberg has gone to the great coin grading room in the sky some TPG will grade it MS66. Hell, you could end up sending this to PCGS tomorrow and they might grade it 66.

 

As a scientist physics-fan, don't you find it incredibly odd that our grading scales have this kind of precision but at the same time grading itself is not even accurate or consistent? It's like using a ruler that has 1/8 scales on it while trying to measure the length of a car.......that's going by at 70 MPH.

 

Sorry for the diversion but as a "scientist" (of sorts...I'm an electrical engineer) this has always bugged the cr*p out of me.

 

jom

 

Unfortunately, I really don't have a good answer for this. It all seems an exercise in pointlessness, really. Half the people I show this coin to agree that it is a 66, and half say its a really nice 65. Who's to say who's right? This is where I think the TPG's really have the right idea in trying to put a value on a coin more than a grade. Talking with Mark at the show (even for only a couple of minutes) reinforced this to me - he mentioned that he wouldn't put the 66 * FBL on it because the coin wasn't worth it . Always keep in mind, the grading companies are putting a value on coins - not a grade.

 

As for the precision grading, I think it all comes down to marketing. There's no way that anyone can consistently pick out + coins, but the market thinks they can. And the market will continue to resubmit to try and get the higher grade or the plus. Sorry if this sounds cynical (especially in light of my consult with Mark). But the fact of the matter is, if I were to resubmit this coin one or two or five more times, its likely that eventually I would get a 66. That's just the way it goes - grading is subjective. The star is subjective. The plus is slightly more objective, but when you are taking about the fine line between 65 and 66, and then an even finer line between 65.7 and 65.8, there is no grader alive that can accurately and consistently make that judgement.

 

And that's the best answer I can give on the topic.

[leeg]

As an aside (not having really anything to do with this coin): What's the point of this precision grading if you still have these huge price jumps?

 

Besides, 20 years from now after you've sold it and Mark Salsberg has gone to the great coin grading room in the sky some TPG will grade it MS66. Hell, you could end up sending this to PCGS tomorrow and they might grade it 66.

 

As a scientist physics-fan, don't you find it incredibly odd that our grading scales have this kind of precision but at the same time grading itself is not even accurate or consistent? It's like using a ruler that has 1/8 scales on it while trying to measure the length of a car.......that's going by at 70 MPH.

 

Sorry for the diversion but as a "scientist" (of sorts...I'm an electrical engineer) this has always bugged the cr*p out of me.

 

jom

 

Unfortunately, I really don't have a good answer for this. It all seems an exercise in pointlessness, really. Half the people I show this coin to agree that it is a 66, and half say its a really nice 65. Who's to say who's right? This is where I think the TPG's really have the right idea in trying to put a value on a coin more than a grade. Talking with Mark at the show (even for only a couple of minutes) reinforced this to me - he mentioned that he wouldn't put the 66 * FBL on it because the coin wasn't worth it . Always keep in mind, the grading companies are putting a value on coins - not a grade.

 

As for the precision grading, I think it all comes down to marketing. There's no way that anyone can consistently pick out + coins, but the market thinks they can. And the market will continue to resubmit to try and get the higher grade or the plus. Sorry if this sounds cynical (especially in light of my consult with Mark). But the fact of the matter is, if I were to resubmit this coin one or two or five more times, its likely that eventually I would get a 66. That's just the way it goes - grading is subjective. The star is subjective. The plus is slightly more objective, but when you are taking about the fine line between 65 and 66, and then an even finer line between 65.7 and 65.8, there is no grader alive that can accurately and consistently make that judgement.

 

And that's the best answer I can give on the topic.

 

(thumbs u