The Value of a Plus, or My 5 Minutes with Mark Salzberg

[coinman_23885]

I think MS65 is right; I don't think the surfaces are clean enough for a MS66. If two registry collectors ended up in a bidding war (which is possible should you ever auction the coin off), I think the price realized will surprise you (in a good way) although I think the pricing will be closer to the MS65 than MS66 level.

[jom]

As an aside (not having really anything to do with this coin): What's the point of this precision grading if you still have these huge price jumps?

 

Besides, 20 years from now after you've sold it and Mark Salsberg has gone to the great coin grading room in the sky some TPG will grade it MS66. Hell, you could end up sending this to PCGS tomorrow and they might grade it 66.

 

As a scientist physics-fan, don't you find it incredibly odd that our grading scales have this kind of precision but at the same time grading itself is not even accurate or consistent? It's like using a ruler that has 1/8 scales on it while trying to measure the length of a car.......that's going by at 70 MPH.

 

Sorry for the diversion but as a "scientist" (of sorts...I'm an electrical engineer) this has always bugged the cr*p out of me.

 

jom

 

Unfortunately, I really don't have a good answer for this. It all seems an exercise in pointlessness, really. Half the people I show this coin to agree that it is a 66, and half say its a really nice 65. Who's to say who's right? This is where I think the TPG's really have the right idea in trying to put a value on a coin more than a grade. Talking with Mark at the show (even for only a couple of minutes) reinforced this to me - he mentioned that he wouldn't put the 66 * FBL on it because the coin wasn't worth it . Always keep in mind, the grading companies are putting a value on coins - not a grade.

 

As for the precision grading, I think it all comes down to marketing. There's no way that anyone can consistently pick out + coins, but the market thinks they can. And the market will continue to resubmit to try and get the higher grade or the plus. Sorry if this sounds cynical (especially in light of my consult with Mark). But the fact of the matter is, if I were to resubmit this coin one or two or five more times, its likely that eventually I would get a 66. That's just the way it goes - grading is subjective. The star is subjective. The plus is slightly more objective, but when you are taking about the fine line between 65 and 66, and then an even finer line between 65.7 and 65.8, there is no grader alive that can accurately and consistently make that judgement.

 

And that's the best answer I can give on the topic.

 

+1

 

jom

[Hard Times]

I think MS65 is right; I don't think the surfaces are clean enough for a MS66. If two registry collectors ended up in a bidding war (which is possible should you ever auction the coin off), I think the price realized will surprise you (in a good way) although I think the pricing will be closer to the MS65 than MS66 level.

 

au contraire, I saw the coin in hand at the NGC luncheon, there is one minute nick on the left field of the obverse and one obverse rim nick, there is no other flaws in the fields on both sides that could give it any definition of 'not clean enough' except those two noted features which put it below 66.0 according to what Jason told me from Salzberg's assessment. On top of that, you should see the richness of the flash in this half, Jason can attest to how strong my 'wow' was when he handed it to me. This is one case where viewing in hand has an advantage.

 

Best, HT

[jom]

This is one case where viewing in hand has an advantage.

 

Best, HT

 

I don't know of ANY case that it isn't better to view it in hand.

 

jom

[RockMyAmadeus]

This is a wonderful idea, and I hope the guys over at CGC think of doing the same thing.

[coinman_23885]

This is one case where viewing in hand has an advantage.

 

Best, HT

 

I don't know of ANY case that it isn't better to view it in hand.

 

jom

 

+1

[coinman_23885]

I think MS65 is right; I don't think the surfaces are clean enough for a MS66. If two registry collectors ended up in a bidding war (which is possible should you ever auction the coin off), I think the price realized will surprise you (in a good way) although I think the pricing will be closer to the MS65 than MS66 level.

 

au contraire, I saw the coin in hand at the NGC luncheon, there is one minute nick on the left field of the obverse and one obverse rim nick, there is no other flaws in the fields on both sides that could give it any definition of 'not clean enough' except those two noted features which put it below 66.0 according to what Jason told me from Salzberg's assessment. On top of that, you should see the richness of the flash in this half, Jason can attest to how strong my 'wow' was when he handed it to me. This is one case where viewing in hand has an advantage.

 

Best, HT

 

I would trust an in hand assessment over an internet image any day, and all of my comments are based on what I am seeing in the posted images. I don't have problems with the fields at all; there is too much chatter on the obverse devices in my opinion. I will admit that it is very close to MS66, but I agree more with MS65+. Regardless, it is certainly worth a decent size premium.. While it wouldn't be an egregious of case of overgrading in a 66 holder, I do think that it would be low end. With all of this said, I love the coin. Any Franklin collector would be fortunate to own a nice specimen like this.

[Kamillion]

i just bot my first plus designation coin, thanks to Jason.

 

 

=)

[coinman_23885]

i just bot my first plus designation coin, thanks to Jason.

 

 

=)

 

Neat; was this your new purchase (if you care to reveal)?

[Hard Times]

Coinman, good point on the cheek chatter, I honestly had missed that in an effort to focus in on the fields, but you are correct this is a touch of this, but this is still a big coin for a 65 for sure.

 

Best, HT

[Houston Investor]

Every rare coin is unique and pricing where it falls in the grade range will vary. While a sticker or a plus may point out someone's opinion of what is a nice coin it is the dealer who is experienced at pushing the coin the right way who knows how to get all the money. Then it takes a buyer who will pay the money.

 

I occasionally buy exceptional coins for the grade as a way of enjoying the hobby. Some of them are stickered or have the plus but irregardless they meet my own criteria for solid or premium quality. I enjoy displaying these in my case at shows but they are for people who will pay the money and simply marked up over my cost accordingly (as I had to pay a premium for these). The people only looking to pay sheet or haggle are blowing in the wind with me.

 

Sometimes they will walk away in a huff because of my price or simply try to argue based on some book or message board like they are some know it all lecturing me. I simply treat them politely and send them on their way. One rather stubborn fellow came back more than once to the table to argue about the price - we were not that far apart - less than the cost of a lap dance. He eventually bought the coin at my price.

[Catbert]

Catbert,

 

His reply of "sure" could of been in a sarcastic manor. I would think that since I am sure you are not the only person to have emailed him asking that same question.

 

No, I asked a very specific question and his reply wasn't sarcastic at all. There was more to the e-mail and I'll post it again assuming I can find it.

 

Here is the e-mail from 2009:

 

From: (edited)

Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:28 PM

To: info@caccoin.com

Subject: The CAC Sticker and NGC Star Coins

 

There is much debate on the NGC forums regarding how CAC addresses NGC Star coins.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3352875&nt=3&fpart=1

 

Can you either post there or provide me with the answer so I may post the information? The issue centers around whether the CAC sticker validates not only that the coin is an "A" or "B" coin, but also that it has exceptional eye appeal (the NGC Star definition).

 

My understanding of your service is that you do not validate NGC's determination of eye appeal. Thus, if an NGC Star coin possesses a CAC green sticker, it only represents that it is accurate for the grade.

 

Please respond so your service is clarified.

 

Best,

 

Dan (edited) aka Catbert

 

The reply:

 

Dear Dan-

 

I haven't given this topic much thought until your recent email. I'm 99% certain that I haven't seen a star designated coin that I didn't think had excellent eye appeal. So...., I would say "yes", CAC agrees with the NGC star designation on CAC stickered coins. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to call.

 

Thanks you for bringing this to my attention

 

John

 

 

Michelle Kumpf

 

CAC

 

908-781-9101 (phone)

 

908-781-0746 (fax)

 

michelle.kumpf@caccoin.com

 

- - - - - -

 

Edited to add: Of course, CAC's position may have evolved as Mark and MJ comments appear to represent.