First error coin and first slapped coin

[Digenes-migration]

This is my fist post on this forum and hope I don't screw it up to much.

 

Here are a few photos of my first major error coin I found while roll searching, and because of the contriversity it caused when I first posted it on another forum about two years ago, I decided to send it out to get graded just to verify that it was a ligit error and not a "hammer" coin.

 

2000P Obverse Clashed Die

 

 

 

Another shot of the obverse

 

 

 

And a third shot of the obverse

 

 

 

Heres a shot of the reverse

 

 

 

A second shot of the reverse

 

 

 

And another of the reverse

 

 

 

And the final three photos

 

 

 

 

 

This coin has been discribed as one of the stronged clashed die coins in the world.

 

Thanks for looking

Dave

USN Retired and Disabled Vet

[bsshog40]

Welcome to the forum Dave. Nice error Jeff!!

[zeewool]

I would have to disagree with it being "one of the strongest clashed die coins in the world.", for sure it isn't, but it is highly interesting.

 

 

[noow]

Cool coin! (thumbs u

[lehigh96]

That coin is as cool as the other side of the pillow. Congrats on a great find!

[RockMyAmadeus]

That is very, very neat, Dave. Sorry you had to deal with doubters.

[physics-fan3.14]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

[ldhair]

Cool looking clash.

[thebeav]

Very cool Jefferson !

 

Paul

[cpm9ball]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

 

Welcome to the neighborhood!

 

Personally, I like it! I don't care what Jason says.

 

Chris

[johnny9434]

way cool coin and welcome to the forums as well.

[brg5658]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

 

Very cool coin, and welcome to the boards. You will get used to Jason's "optimism".

 

-Brandon

[Kenneth F]

Now that is a cool looking coin... outstanding find!!

[noow]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

 

Welcome to the neighborhood!

 

Personally, I like it! I don't care what Jason says.

 

Chris

[zeewool]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

 

After a second look, I am with you on this physicsfan......

 

Since when does a clash cause a raised impression on a die (a depression on the coin)?

 

 

Nope..... this thing is homemade.

[RWB]

...sandwich…

[Kenneth F]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

 

After a second look, I am with you on this physicsfan......

 

Since when does a clash cause a raised impression on a die (a depression on the coin)?

 

 

Nope..... this thing is homemade.

 

WOW, you really have no trust what so ever in PCGS. If it was made in his garage, why did PCGS certifiy it and not bodybag it? I am in no ways a fan of PCGS, but come on!

[Buffalo Head]

Wecome to the forum! Your coin looks way cool, I love clashed pieces and your is WAY clashed. Now what does O/R mean?

[nk1nk]

^obverse and reverse

 

Nick

[physics-fan3.14]

Personally, I'm still not convinced. I don't care what PCGS says.

 

After a second look, I am with you on this physicsfan......

 

Since when does a clash cause a raised impression on a die (a depression on the coin)?

 

 

Nope..... this thing is homemade.

 

WOW, you really have no trust what so ever in PCGS. If it was made in his garage, why did PCGS certifiy it and not bodybag it? I am in no ways a fan of PCGS, but come on!

 

Because PCGS (and NGC) make mistakes. Why? Because there are humans running the place. Sorry, but humans make mistakes. This is why I strive so hard to educate collectors, and tell them to rely on their own opinions. Sometimes, telling the truth makes me come off as the bad guy - but such are the facts of life.

 

Why do I think this coin is not real: clashes do not travel up onto the devices. Look particularly at Jefferson's bust, Jefferson's queue, and the right side of Monticello on the reverse. The designs behaving like that is simply not possible, I don't care how strong the clash is.

 

Furthermore, the flattened areas on both the obverse and reverse are classic signs of a sandwich coin. The coin was placed between two other coins, and hammered until the designs showed. This left flattened areas on both sides. A true clash would be fully struck (and an AU coin such as this would show traces of wear on the high points).

 

For genuine examples of what a clash of this type would look like, please see the link here: http://www.errorvariety.com/Clashes/84P5C_ZCL-001.html

 

So, I don't want to hear that its my optimism, I don't want to hear I'm a sceptic. The OP's coin is a fake, PCGS got it wrong. I don't see where there is an issue for debate here. Sorry to the OP, but these are the facts.

 

Here is an example from that link, which shows just how fake the OP's coin is:

[James_OldeTowne]

My first reaction would be that PCGS severely blew it on the coin. It looks like a simulated error using the hammered sandwich method.

[ldhair]

I don't understand the coin. The clash should not continue into the devices but I would think a hammer job would cause more to be showing on the devices.

Interesting coin.

[Digenes-migration]

For all those who like it thanks, for those who have doubts let me point out a few things.

 

Looking at the Obverse

If you look at the WE and T in Trust you will notice that the clash runs completely under the the letters without effecting the WE and T at all, they are still very crisp and not effected by the clash. Also look at the Tand Y of Liberty the * and the 20 of the year, notice here also that the letters and numbers are not effected at all by the clash but are very crisp and complete. If this were a so called hammer job, you would not find this letter intact as they are but mushed by the top coin. Now also on the Obverse you will note that only the m and o of monticello are showing at all instead of running completely accross Jeffersons head. Again if this were a hammer job you would not see that as it would effect the raised portion of Jeffersons bust also.

 

Now on the Reverse

Lookiing at the words Monticello and Five Cents, these words are totally intact and not damaged at all, as would be expected if this were a hammer job. You can also see the same thing in the word STATES, the ATES are crisp and sharp along with the word OF. Now look at the words Pluribus Umum. You will note that the UIBUS and UMUM are totally uneffected with the clash running under these words on the coin and not causing any damage to these words which again you could not find if this coin were in fact a hammer job.

 

Then again there will always be those who doubt it, which is fine with me, every one is entitled to there own opinion, be it right or wrong. I know what I have, PCGS knows what I have, the two experts who examined the coin in hand to do a write up on it, know what it is. In the end that is really all that matters. You will always have those who will doubt anything no matter what anyone else says about it, and that is just fine.

 

Thanks

Dave

USN Retired and Disabled Vet.

[Buffalo Head]

It looks real to me for this reason....If ya look at the obverse of this coin you'll see the clashing of the Monticello building very bold in the fields and no so much so on the bust of Jefferson. Now how in the world are you going to pull that off with a sandwich job?

[AegisIII]

I recall when this coin was first posted ATS. I did not post my thoughts then, because I had agreed with what most people had said up to that time: I thought it was your basic hammer job. Mike Diamond posted and disagreed, saying it was a strong clashed die strike.

 

And after he posted I think he is right; it is a rather quite strong clashed die coin. Note that most of the clash is in the fields, as is typical of a clash. Yes, some of the clashing comes up into the design. But even the clashing in the field is quite strong; this is not your typical clashed die. And given how flat the relief on coins are these days, it would not take too much for a clash to start to bleed up into the designs (that is, between a standard "weak" clash and a stronger one (though this gets more complicated than I think I can easily explain)). And this is what we see with this coin.

 

As to the hammer coin hypothesis. It's not what we would see. If you were to hammer two/three coins together, the designs are the place of maximal contact, not the fields. So we would expect to see most of the "clashing" on the designs in that case. That is, of course, not what we see here. Instead, the lettering is intact by the clashing, and, expect for some peripheral parts of the design, the clashing is absent from the designs.

 

The weak striking we see in the center of the coin in just that, a weak strike. It is possible that the strong clashing caused some die sinkage, but I don't feel qualified to speculate on that.

 

[brg5658]

Then again there will always be those who doubt it, which is fine with me, every one is entitled to there own opinion, be it right or wrong. I know what I have, PCGS knows what I have, the two experts who examined the coin in hand to do a write up on it, know what it is. In the end that is really all that matters. You will always have those who will doubt anything no matter what anyone else says about it, and that is just fine.

 

Do not dismay Dave. It's a beautiful error, and I believe it's genuinely what PCGS has called it. Take the blunt disbelievers' comments with a grain of salt.

-Brandon

[brg5658]

Furthermore, the flattened areas on both the obverse and reverse are classic signs of a sandwich coin. The coin was placed between two other coins, and hammered until the designs showed. This left flattened areas on both sides. A true clash would be fully struck (and an AU coin such as this would show traces of wear on the high points).

 

Jason, how do you explain that the only place where the clashed impression has "creeped up on the devices" is the shallowest areas (not the highest areas as would be the case for a sandwiched coin)? Take another look at the pictures posted, and you will see that your "hammered" hypothesis is laughable. There are NO areas where the text around the perimeter of the coin has been cut into by the "hammering". The ONLY places where the clashed design creeps up onto the devices is the most shallow areas, suggesting an incredibly deeply clashed set of dies struck this nickel, not what you're suggesting.

 

 

So, I don't want to hear that its my optimism, I don't want to hear I'm a sceptic. The OP's coin is a fake, PCGS got it wrong. I don't see where there is an issue for debate here. Sorry to the OP, but these are the facts.

 

Sorry to you Jason, but these are not facts, these are your opinions. If you look at the OPs pictures again, I believe you will see that there is no way a "hammered" coin would look like this.

[physics-fan3.14]

 

Sorry to you Jason, but these are not facts, these are your opinions. If you look at the OPs pictures again, I believe you will see that there is no way a "hammered" coin would look like this.

 

I am open to other alternatives. But I maintain this is not a clashed coin.

[brwnprkns]

Hello Dave

Nice error coin and congratulations on finding in a roll

I agree with it being an error, I disagree with the grade. I am leaninng more towards MS62 do to the depth of the clash the metal flow of the planchet would not fully fill the devices upon striking.

It would be a nice addition to my signature set, if it is for sale PM me

.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Then again there will always be those who doubt it, which is fine with me, every one is entitled to there own opinion, be it right or wrong. I know what I have, PCGS knows what I have, the two experts who examined the coin in hand to do a write up on it, know what it is. In the end that is really all that matters. You will always have those who will doubt anything no matter what anyone else says about it, and that is just fine.

The privilege of being able to disagree is what makes this a special place to hang out. Thanks for the great thread!