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Why I refuse to grade my coins with PCGS.

Started by noow,

50 posts in this topic

noow

noow

Posted
Posted

The First Strike fiasco. For those who haven't heard......

 

PCGS, at a time, started starting grading coins "First Strike". First strike designations imply that the coin is better because it was one of the.....first strikes. But when you look at the fine print, First Strike actually means-

 

A coin packaged for shipment form the US Mint within 1 month of the official release date.

 

One problem with this is that the mint does not keep track of which coins it mints first. Many of the coins are minted before the release date, so "First Strike" coins are usually a large majority (or all!) of the coins minted.

 

But the two reasons that totally trash the first strike designation is that

 

(1) Coin dies are constantly being worn out and replaced so there is a continuous flow of coins coming from new or worn dies - the Mint does not track coins coming from certain die pairs.

 

and

 

(2) If a coin is graded a certain grade, that is the definate grade of the coin. Of course, strike is part of the grade too. A "First Strike" label implies the coin is better than the grade. Where's the logic?

 

NGC was presured by the new competition created by the first strike designations, and it, along with other TPGs, started grading coins first strike too. (You can see that PCGS knows it's misleading too- otherwise they probably would have sued). But someone eventually did sue NGC, along with PCGS. An individual brought the case to court and both TPGs settled the cases with cash. PCGS continues to designate coins as "First Strike", while NGC uses "Early Releases", a much more honest label. I am thinking PCGS made a good decision cash-wise with keeping the FS thing- ethically? Not in my opinion.

NGC used first strikes too. Why did I not shun them from my grading circle? NGC only started designating coins FS because of presure from PCGS, like I stated before. *deleted*

I still buy PCGS graded coins, but do not use them for grading and I do not purchase PCGS FS coins. I buy NGC FS coins because they changed the label willingly and they have the potential price increase for a label that was only used for a certain period of time.

 

Now, Mr. Feld, please correct me if I'm wrong :)

 

Edited to add-

After some research, NGC did stop the FS labelng after the lawsuit.

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coinman1794

coinman1794

Posted
Posted

I agree that the First Strike concept is completely bogus, and the desirability of an "Early Releases" coin is questionable too. However, I think both NGC and PCGS were labeling the First Strike coins for about a decade before they got sued and NGC changed the name.

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

sheeple love the super high ga-ga 69 70 grade registry set gimmick; are followers and so they follow the herd and/or whomever is the current flavor of the month to listen to (the leader who happens to profit handsomely off of huge economy submissions) and make these super duper uber graded and over designated coins selling to the followers playing on peoples passions wuth regards to having the finest graded plastic and also brokering such coins acting as a middle man

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
Posted

For modern Proof and commemorative coins the whole "First Strike" concept is totally silly. The mint strikes coins before they offer them to the public. The coins are mixed up regardless of when they were struck and packaged. The receipt of the coins has nothing to do with when the coins were struck. The first one shipped might have been the 10,000th piece off the dies. This has to do with "flippers" who are looking to make a quick buck, and collectors who don't know any better.

 

As a collector of early coins, do I like early die states more? Generally I do because the strikes are often sharper. But with modern collector coins in Proof and commemorative sets it does not mean anything because the mint standards of manufacturing are generally quite hight. "Late die states" are generally unknown with this type of material.

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jtryka

jtryka

Posted
Posted

It's all a gimmick, to me, grade the 1849 double eagle in the National Numismatic Collection, and yes, that one should say first strike all day long, but to give that designation to a 2012 silver eagle in January, when they started minting 2012 silver eagles in August of 2011, seems a bit of a stretch...

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Conder101

Conder101

Posted
Posted
However, I think both NGC and PCGS were labeling the First Strike coins for about a decade before they got sued and NGC changed the name.

PCGS started using First Strike in mid 2005, NGC followed suit a couple months later. The lawsuit was filed I believe in early 2006. NGC switched to Early Release a few months later. This satisfied the suit and NGC was dropped as a defendant. I don't know what finally happened with the suit. I assume it was probably eventually dropped as I had heard no more of it and PCGS is still using First Strike.

 

You will see ASE's dated earlier than 2005 because the services go by the packing date inside the submitted green monster boxes and as long as that date is before Jan 31st they are eligible for the First Strike/Early Release labels.

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Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
That sure is a silly reason not to use a companys service.

 

I would be interested, only out of curiosity and no other purpose, why such a choice would be considered silly?

 

I would think that if an individual has established a personal level of integrity and/or acceptability, that he/she expects from a potential service provider, and the personal expectation is not fulfilled, then the personal choice is certainly reasonable.

 

It may not be my or anyone elses' choice, I understand. THta does not make the choice silly.

 

Respectfully,(of course)

 

John Curlis

 

PS: I really like the "new word" coined in this Thread, and the Forum Member that used it should claim ownership thru Oxford and Webster.

 

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

On the rare occasions when I have a coin authenticated and "graded," I use PCGS or NGC depending on which is better with certain coins. For example, I would never send a satin proof 1921 Peace dollar to PCGS - they do not understand the die and production indicators.

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted
That sure is a silly reason not to use a companys service.

 

I would be interested, only out of curiosity and no other purpose, why such a choice would be considered silly?

 

I would think that if an individual has established a personal level of integrity and/or acceptability, that he/she expects from a potential service provider, and the personal expectation is not fulfilled, then the personal choice is certainly reasonable.

Yup, I wholeheartedly agree. I will not sell on ebay, period, anymore because I refuse to support their despicable ethics.

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted
Whoa , Is bogosity a word hm

 

The word is "bogusness". bogus is spelled with a "u" not an "o", and bogosity is thus not a word.

 

Back on topic though, I have to agree with the majority of those in this thread. Though, as much as I love NGC over PCGS, I'm not sure that there is fundamentally much difference between the "First Strike" and "Early Releases" designations. I think the differences are in name only, because of legal reasons (mentioned earlier). So, why someone would not send coins to PCGS because they designate coins as First Strikes is the least of the reasons why I don't send coins to PCGS. Among them:

 

1. PCGS customer service is almost universally considered worse than NGC.

2. PCGS is more expensive for submissions, and I don't believe the service to be superior to that of NGC.

3. The membership fees to "join" and be allowed to submit to PCGS are more expensive (see 2).

4. I prefer the mentality of NGC evidenced by allowing free thought and open conversations on their forum without the constant banning and drama (as is the case it seems ATS).

....

....

etc.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

So Noow, you believe both PCGS and NGC did something bad/wrong in using the "first strike" designation? But you are excusing NGC because they felt "pressured" to do it? That is no excuse or defense.

 

For the record (again, since I have spoken out on this subject number of times over the years), I think the "first strike" designation is misleading and am sorry that it has met with such demand and success.

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jerseycat10

jerseycat10

Posted
Posted
That sure is a silly reason not to use a companys service.

 

I would be interested, only out of curiosity and no other purpose, why such a choice would be considered silly?

 

 

I'll let Mark's previous response answer that for me.

 

So Noow, you believe both PCGS and NGC did something bad/wrong in using the "first strike" designation? But you are excusing NGC because they felt "pressured" to do it? That is no excuse or defense.

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Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
That sure is a silly reason not to use a companys service.

 

I would be interested, only out of curiosity and no other purpose, why such a choice would be considered silly?

 

 

I'll let Mark's previous response answer that for me.

 

So Noow, you believe both PCGS and NGC did something bad/wrong in using the "first strike" designation? But you are excusing NGC because they felt "pressured" to do it? That is no excuse or defense.

 

Ummm,

 

I think 2 entirely different issues are addressed via Mr Feld's thoughts. and my thoughts.

 

I am addressing personal expectation and choice as reasonable, as opposed to silly.

 

Mr. Feld is addressing the application of a personal standard by an individual, that is in conflict and not consistently applied by the individual.

 

But (there is always a "but"), I could be wrong. I am not very good at theses things.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

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noow

noow

Posted
  • Author
Posted
So Noow, you believe both PCGS and NGC did something bad/wrong in using the "first strike" designation? But you are excusing NGC because they felt "pressured" to do it? That is no excuse or defense.

 

For the record (again, since I have spoken out on this subject number of times over the years), I think the "first strike" designation is misleading and am sorry that it has met with such demand and success.

Yes, I believe NGC has more of an excuse to start the "First Strike" because of pressure from PCGS.

 

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
It is, and a wonderful one, at that! ;)

 

At the risk of being pronounced silly, may I ask what this comment is in reference to?

I was hoping it is the "new" word.........

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

Dear Mr. silly :devil: my comment was in reference to the post I have copied below, and which I had forgotten to include, previously. :sorry:

 

Whoa , Is bogosity a word hm

 

 

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mailman1959

mailman1959

Posted
Posted

Early Release is also a misleading indicator. In 2007 I ordered the 4 coin gold sets on the day they went on sale. I recieved them about 2 weeks later, put them in the safe. In 2011 I sent them to NGC in the original mint sealed boxes and recieved a call that they COULD NOT recieve Early Release Labels. My order was clearly within the first 30 days of release but did not generate the immediate cash flow that the "new" rule requires. It is simply a marketing ploy to require collectors to spend money now instead of later. Early Release only means you released your money EARLY for a coin that would presumaly grade the same LATER. Enjoy your collecting adventures....

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