Fate of Cameron Kiefer?

[DC Dawg]

Someone sent me a note asking if I knew Cameron Kiefer and could confirm that he committed suicide. There's also a thread on CoinTalk (http://www.cointalk.com/t146923/) that says this.

 

Does anyone know if what is being said at CoinTalk is true?

 

Scott

 

[Coindude]

I know he had been having some problems, but this would be outrageous and extremely sad.

[123cents]

I met Cameron when he was a grader for ICG. He was very excited about coins and was a very pleasant and cordial young man. Very sad news if true.

[BROADSTRUCK]

I read on the Open Forum that Idahogal

received an email - presumably from Mrs. Keifer -

that Cameron had jumped from an overpass on the

Interstate near where they live in the Denver area.

 

There is no name mentioned in the Denver Police

Blotter in The Denver Post... just says an unidentified

man fell 25 feet to his death

 

 

Cameron was 28 years old the man who jumped off the I-25 bridge was confirmed as having been 20 years old.

 

[Coindude]

Before that goes poof, here's something that was posted ATS by one of it's members.

Hi, This is J.P.Martin

I just picked you at random to pass a message to the board members, I've noticed a lot of Cameron comments here recently. I thought I might bring you all up to date before you dig too deep a hole. I've known the kid for 6 years, and knew him to be one of the most genuine and honest people I've known. I have not worked with him since he left ICG in march 2008. Cameron tried to make it as a dealer since. I'll be the first to tell you He did not do well with money. I think He was very desperate to salvage his families finances and reputation over the last few weeks. I'll tell you all that he held the PCGS board members opinion of him very highly. He has been robbing Peter to pay Paul, hoping he could make it right. Sadly this drama has played out as a tragedy. Cameron Kiefer 28, took his own life with a gun early tuesday. He leaves behind a wife,a 3 yr old daughter and a one yr old son. Call him a crook, call him a coward, I just miss my friend and wish I could have him back for mere dollars.

[BROADSTRUCK]

Shocking update just posted ATS...

 

I just received this e-mail:

 

Hi, This is J.P.Martin

I just picked you at random to pass a message to the board members,

I've noticed a lot of Cameron comments here recently. I thought I might

bring you all up to date before you dig too deep a hole.

I've known the kid for 6 years, and knew him to be one of the most

genuine and honest people I've known. I have not worked with him since

he left ICG in march 2008. Cameron tried to make it as a dealer since. I'll

be the first to tell you He did not do well with money. I think He was very

desperate to salvage his families finances and reputation over the last few

weeks. I'll tell you all that he held the PCGS board members opinion of him

very highly. He has been robbing Peter to pay Paul, hoping he could make

it right. Sadly this drama has played out as a tragedy.

Cameron Kiefer 28, took his own life with a gun early tuesday. He leaves

behind a wife,a 3 yr old daughter and a one yr old son.

Call him a crook, call him a coward, I just miss my friend and wish I could

have him back for mere dollars.

[James_OldeTowne]

I would like to see independent confirmation, but this would be horrible if true. Not trying to sound like a callous doubter, but anyone can send an email saying anything at any time.

[robec1347]

This was just posted ATS. An email to a forum member. Of course PCGS has poofed the thread.

Hi, This is J.P.Martin

I just picked you at random to pass a message to the board members,

I've noticed a lot of Cameron comments here recently. I thought I might

bring you all up to date before you dig too deep a hole.

I've known the kid for 6 years, and knew him to be one of the most

genuine and honest people I've known. I have not worked with him since

he left ICG in march 2008. Cameron tried to make it as a dealer since. I'll

be the first to tell you He did not do well with money. I think He was very

desperate to salvage his families finances and reputation over the last few

weeks. I'll tell you all that he held the PCGS board members opinion of him

very highly. He has been robbing Peter to pay Paul, hoping he could make

it right. Sadly this drama has played out as a tragedy.

Cameron Kiefer 28, took his own life with a gun early tuesday. He leaves

behind a wife,a 3 yr old daughter and a one yr old son.

Call him a crook, call him a coward, I just miss my friend and wish I could

have him back for mere dollars.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

I don't really understand why the informational threads ATS regarding this issue are being pulled? I guess anything posted spirals out of control so safe guards have been put into place.

 

Still no confirmation from the news services/police departments? I understand he was a reserve officer with some department in the Denver/Springs area, no?

[DC Dawg]

Currently, there is no record in the Colorado Springs Police Blotter http://www.springsgov.com/units/police/policeblotter.asp which is maintained by the Colorado Springs Police Department. It may be a day-or-two behind.

 

If this is true, it is really sad.

 

Scott

[HaydenTubbs]

This is very, very sad news... Regardless of his recent business practices, it breaks my heart that he chose this as his way out.

He was incredibly knowledgeable, always willing to help out, and quick to answer questions. As a young YN, he was a role model to me and it made my day the times when he went out of his way to encourage me. This is what I will remember him by...

 

 

Hayden

[jesbroken]

I emailed the Police Chief for Colorado Springs, but have not heard back, as of yet. If I do, I will certainly post it.

Jim

[Drunner-migration]

I usually hang out ATS but as you have mentioned, all posts are being pulled as fast as they come up. I started on the PCGS Boards at around the same time as Cameron. Never met him but was amazed at his numismatic acumen and learned much.

 

I was shocked when the historical threads appeared in the last weeks about the problems he has had, and now this. I still hold out hope it isn't true, but in any case, I'll remember the good things from years ago.

 

Drunner

[Drunner-migration]

Wow . .compared to ATS, this place IS quiet. The rumors I heard are true. I was hoping for 20-40 posts on this topic by now, but I think I'll go back to the Utah game . .

 

No offense . . . but I thought this might have been considered a huge topic. I will admit that I was coming here for the freedom and news . . but thought maybe more followers existed here.

 

Drunner

[physics-fan3.14]

Wow . .compared to ATS, this place IS quiet. The rumors I heard are true. I was hoping for 20-40 posts on this topic by now, but I think I'll go back to the Utah game . .

 

No offense . . . but I thought this might have been considered a huge topic. I will admit that I was coming here for the freedom and news . . but thought maybe more followers existed here.

 

Drunner

 

Thing is, he didn't post here very often, so members didn't really know him very well. We are, of course, all shocked and saddened by the loss, but its not quite as personal as some of the other losses we have had this year (at least for me).

[James_OldeTowne]

Wow . .compared to ATS, this place IS quiet. The rumors I heard are true. I was hoping for 20-40 posts on this topic by now, but I think I'll go back to the Utah game . .

 

No offense . . . but I thought this might have been considered a huge topic. I will admit that I was coming here for the freedom and news . . but thought maybe more followers existed here.

 

Drunner

Maybe folks over here are simply more thoughtful and contemplative than those ATS, and don't feel the need to blow up threads with meaningless drivel? Not trying to be crude or anything, but the opposite of "quiet" is "noisy", and I much prefer the former.

[DC Dawg]

Maybe folks over here are simply more thoughtful and contemplative than those ATS, and don't feel the need to blow up threads with meaningless drivel? Not trying to be crude or anything, but the opposite of "quiet" is "noisy", and I much prefer the former.

Or more reverential.

 

[michael]

Wow . .compared to ATS, this place IS quiet. The rumors I heard are true. I was hoping for 20-40 posts on this topic by now, but I think I'll go back to the Utah game . .

 

No offense . . . but I thought this might have been considered a huge topic. I will admit that I was coming here for the freedom and news . . but thought maybe more followers existed here.

 

Drunner

Maybe folks over here are simply more thoughtful and contemplative than those ATS, and don't feel the need to blow up threads with meaningless drivel? Not trying to be crude or anything, but the opposite of "quiet" is "noisy", and I much prefer the former.

 

[gmarguli]

When I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see some comment about whether Cameron would be able to remain in coins given the issues of non-delivery of coins/payments that have been recently discussed. I was absolutely floored to read this news as it was something I would have never expected from him.

 

I first met Cameron around a decade ago at a Long Beach coin show. He was a very enthusiastic “kid” - for lack of a better word - when it came to numismatics. He was always willing to share his knowledge and help out. While I wouldn’t say we were close, I did view him as a friend. When we’d meet up at shows, we’d go out to lunch and chat about all things, not just coins. I recall him calling me freaked out over the behind the scenes happenings at ICG / ANACS and him not sure what move to make especially considering his wife was pregnant at the time. The stories about the behind the scenes at ICG were classic - like a ballistic bag of Sacajawea dollars breaking the building elevator. When his daughter was born, he appeared in heaven. I was one of the people he listed as a character reference for the police department and when I relayed the comments the officer had mentioned to me about Cameron, he was thrilled.

 

I had known for quite some time that he was having financial issues, but not what the cause of them was. Several years ago I used to consign significant amounts of coins to him for eBay auctions. Payments soon lagged, checks bounced, and then checks just stopped coming about a year ago with a significant amount of money still outstanding to this day. Consigned coins were never returned and once I noticed my coins being sold by another seller on eBay that he had “accidentally sold them to”. He even has some of my coins on his website for sale right now. Even with this knowledge, I lent him money on several occasions - which he did pay back - because I viewed him as a good and honest person who was having some troubles. It was always my belief that he would overcome whatever issues he had financially as he truly loved coins and could have had a very bright future in numismatics had he had the business knowledge necessary.

 

The fiasco with the bullion sets last(?) year seemed too odd to buy his account of the story. As much as I wanted to believe him, I couldn’t. He told me of losing money to other dealers - including a well known gold firm in Florida that went BK. His eBay sales patterns were odd. Long stretches of decent sales and happy customers, but then a bump where many higher value items never got delivered and he was kicked off eBay. He would return to eBay under a different ID and the same pattern would reemerge. I’m not sure what exactly happened with his business and I do not believe that he was ever out to cheat people, but rather he was just a very poor businessman. Would a scammer take this way out?

 

From the outside it seemed that he was in a happy marriage and adored his children - at least when I talked to him and brought up the subject, he’d say married life was good and his children were an absolute joy. I truly hope there is more behind this than just short-term financial difficulties as I cannot fathom how he could decide that his best decision was to kill himself and leave his young wife a widow and his two very young children fatherless if it were only financial matters. Contrary to this long-winded post, I'm truly rather speechless over this.

 

And I hate to say this, but while people on the PCGS forums used to take a lot of shots at him and most were in good natured fun, the recent threads ATS were filled with people - many who had no dealings with him - outright attacking him. I wouldn't call it cyber-bulling, but there were clearly personal attacks directed at him from people who had no business throwing stones. Given how much he liked the forums and the users, I hope that had no contribution to his decision to end his life.

 

In the end I will remember Cameron as the super enthusiastic, yet naive kid who loved coins and always seemed to have a smile on his face - even when dealing with clueless collectors asking him to examine their ultra-rare Ike dollars and gold plated state quarter "errors" while working the ICG booth. His willingness to share his knowledge was unmatched among forum members. Anyone who has the time should do an internet search on his name and you will see how many different venues he posted his coin knowledge and answered questions for people. That was the Cameron Kiefer that I will remember.

[jtryka]

Does anyone know any details about a service, or if we can contribute to the family or buy flowers or anything?

 

And by the way Greg, I really appreciated your post above.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Does anyone know any details about a service, or if we can contribute to the family or buy flowers or anything?

 

And by the way Greg, I really appreciated your post above.

 

I also appreciate Greg's post. It puts a lot of things in perspective.

 

I also want to know if there is any way for us to help the family. Perhaps Greg or someone close to the Kiefer family can take up a collection.

[BAJJERFAN]

Before that goes poof, here's something that was posted ATS by one of it's members.

Hi, This is J.P.Martin

I just picked you at random to pass a message to the board members, I've noticed a lot of Cameron comments here recently. I thought I might bring you all up to date before you dig too deep a hole. I've known the kid for 6 years, and knew him to be one of the most genuine and honest people I've known. I have not worked with him since he left ICG in march 2008. Cameron tried to make it as a dealer since. I'll be the first to tell you He did not do well with money. I think He was very desperate to salvage his families finances and reputation over the last few weeks. I'll tell you all that he held the PCGS board members opinion of him very highly. He has been robbing Peter to pay Paul, hoping he could make it right. Sadly this drama has played out as a tragedy. Cameron Kiefer 28, took his own life with a gun early tuesday. He leaves behind a wife,a 3 yr old daughter and a one yr old son. Call him a crook, call him a coward, I just miss my friend and wish I could have him back for mere dollars.

 

 

 

I received that email as well.

[James_OldeTowne]

When I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see some comment about whether Cameron would be able to remain in coins given the issues of non-delivery of coins/payments that have been recently discussed. I was absolutely floored to read this news as it was something I would have never expected from him.

 

I first met Cameron around a decade ago at a Long Beach coin show. He was a very enthusiastic “kid” - for lack of a better word - when it came to numismatics. He was always willing to share his knowledge and help out. While I wouldn’t say we were close, I did view him as a friend. When we’d meet up at shows, we’d go out to lunch and chat about all things, not just coins. I recall him calling me freaked out over the behind the scenes happenings at ICG / ANACS and him not sure what move to make especially considering his wife was pregnant at the time. The stories about the behind the scenes at ICG were classic - like a ballistic bag of Sacajawea dollars breaking the building elevator. When his daughter was born, he appeared in heaven. I was one of the people he listed as a character reference for the police department and when I relayed the comments the officer had mentioned to me about Cameron, he was thrilled.

 

I had known for quite some time that he was having financial issues, but not what the cause of them was. Several years ago I used to consign significant amounts of coins to him for eBay auctions. Payments soon lagged, checks bounced, and then checks just stopped coming about a year ago with a significant amount of money still outstanding to this day. Consigned coins were never returned and once I noticed my coins being sold by another seller on eBay that he had “accidentally sold them to”. He even has some of my coins on his website for sale right now. Even with this knowledge, I lent him money on several occasions - which he did pay back - because I viewed him as a good and honest person who was having some troubles. It was always my belief that he would overcome whatever issues he had financially as he truly loved coins and could have had a very bright future in numismatics had he had the business knowledge necessary.

 

The fiasco with the bullion sets last(?) year seemed too odd to buy his account of the story. As much as I wanted to believe him, I couldn’t. He told me of losing money to other dealers - including a well known gold firm in Florida that went BK. His eBay sales patterns were odd. Long stretches of decent sales and happy customers, but then a bump where many higher value items never got delivered and he was kicked off eBay. He would return to eBay under a different ID and the same pattern would reemerge. I’m not sure what exactly happened with his business and I do not believe that he was ever out to cheat people, but rather he was just a very poor businessman. Would a scammer take this way out?

 

From the outside it seemed that he was in a happy marriage and adored his children - at least when I talked to him and brought up the subject, he’d say married life was good and his children were an absolute joy. I truly hope there is more behind this than just short-term financial difficulties as I cannot fathom how he could decide that his best decision was to kill himself and leave his young wife a widow and his two very young children fatherless if it were only financial matters. Contrary to this long-winded post, I'm truly rather speechless over this.

 

And I hate to say this, but while people on the PCGS forums used to take a lot of shots at him and most were in good natured fun, the recent threads ATS were filled with people - many who had no dealings with him - outright attacking him. I wouldn't call it cyber-bulling, but there were clearly personal attacks directed at him from people who had no business throwing stones. Given how much he liked the forums and the users, I hope that had no contribution to his decision to end his life.

 

In the end I will remember Cameron as the super enthusiastic, yet naive kid who loved coins and always seemed to have a smile on his face - even when dealing with clueless collectors asking him to examine their ultra-rare Ike dollars and gold plated state quarter "errors" while working the ICG booth. His willingness to share his knowledge was unmatched among forum members. Anyone who has the time should do an internet search on his name and you will see how many different venues he posted his coin knowledge and answered questions for people. That was the Cameron Kiefer that I will remember.

I can absolutely sympathize with everything just as Greg states. My best friend put himself through similar turmoil, under similar circumstances, though of course he never contemplated a "final solution". It has probably taken him ten years to work through his debt issues, but he's now doing well.

 

The fact is that a startup business of any kind is risky, and coins are no different. At my low point, I was $62,000 in debt. Sixty-two thousand! I expected to accumulate some debt as the business started up, but that was far in excess of what I'd expected.

 

I'm nowhere near an especially good businessman, but just by keeping at it, toiling at coin shows, and selling a few pieces here and there off my website, I slowly turned the debt around and broke even about five years ago. Since then, I have been in the black, if only by just a little. (Low overhead helps.)

 

Greg, thanks for your extraordinarily thoughtful post and reminisces about Cameron,

[ldhair]

Nice post Greg. (thumbs u

[mark]

I post over here very infrequently but I am moved by Greg's post to thank him for it. It was a very thoughtful and a very nice way to remember someone who had so much promise and enthusiasm.

[DC Dawg]

And I hate to say this, but while people on the PCGS forums used to take a lot of shots at him and most were in good natured fun, the recent threads ATS were filled with people - many who had no dealings with him - outright attacking him. I wouldn't call it cyber-bulling, but there were clearly personal attacks directed at him from people who had no business throwing stones. Given how much he liked the forums and the users, I hope that had no contribution to his decision to end his life.

 

Greg... while most of your post is well stated, I am going to take exception to this. In my work in dealing with the public policy of privacy--which covers cyber bullying and other social-related cyber attacks--I have learned that what you may think about what is being said about a third party may not be what the person who feels they are being bullied feels about what is being said.

 

I am working with a research group at work about how the government can use social media to reach out and provide services to the public. One of the issues we face is how to provide these services under the law and not offend someone in the process. In an experiment that we conducted amongst ourselves we analyzed a statement as I understood as benign but was interpreted as hostile by 75-percent of the group. Even after rewording the statement, we had issues amongst our test audience.

 

We learned that when trying to deal with negative situations, it is going to be difficult to translate electronic communications into everyday conversations. How do you say that you did not get your benefit because did not provide enough information or did not fill out the form right? We are looking for the right balance of words so we can guide training of customer service reps and policy as to what data can be disclosed. We are finding electronic communications in this area to be difficult. Aside from the innate hostility some show to the government, we find that electronic conversations lose context and the tone and inflection in voice communications does not come across electronically.

 

Thus, what you may interpret as not being cyber bullying may have been interpreted otherwise. We don't know what Cameron's state of mind was or how he saw the writing. We will never know if this was a factor in his unfortunate decision, but sources have confirmed that he was distressed over what he read ATS.

 

I hope it isn't the case and that those who attack in general learn something.

 

Scott

[cpm9ball]

And I hate to say this, but while people on the PCGS forums used to take a lot of shots at him and most were in good natured fun, the recent threads ATS were filled with people - many who had no dealings with him - outright attacking him. I wouldn't call it cyber-bulling, but there were clearly personal attacks directed at him from people who had no business throwing stones. Given how much he liked the forums and the users, I hope that had no contribution to his decision to end his life.

 

Greg... while most of your post is well stated, I am going to take exception to this. In my work in dealing with the public policy of privacy--which covers cyber bullying and other social-related cyber attacks--I have learned that what you may think about what is being said about a third party may not be what the person who feels they are being bullied feels about what is being said.

 

I am working with a research group at work about how the government can use social media to reach out and provide services to the public. One of the issues we face is how to provide these services under the law and not offend someone in the process. In an experiment that we conducted amongst ourselves we analyzed a statement as I understood as benign but was interpreted as hostile by 75-percent of the group. Even after rewording the statement, we had issues amongst our test audience.

 

We learned that when trying to deal with negative situations, it is going to be difficult to translate electronic communications into everyday conversations. How do you say that you did not get your benefit because did not provide enough information or did not fill out the form right? We are looking for the right balance of words so we can guide training of customer service reps and policy as to what data can be disclosed. We are finding electronic communications in this area to be difficult. Aside from the innate hostility some show to the government, we find that electronic conversations lose context and the tone and inflection in voice communications does not come across electronically.

 

Thus, what you may interpret as not being cyber bullying may have been interpreted otherwise. We don't know what Cameron's state of mind was or how he saw the writing. We will never know if this was a factor in his unfortunate decision, but sources have confirmed that he was distressed over what he read ATS.

 

I hope it isn't the case and that those who attack in general learn something.

 

Scott

 

Scott, I agree with you 100%. It is an unfortunate fact of life that people "read" things in their own way. A writer can spend forever trying to use nothing but one- or two-syllable words, perfect sentence structure and punctuation, but will still get different interpretations about the context of his writing.

 

We can only guess how these things affected Cameron. I want to add for those of you who view his actions as "pitiful" that you shouldn't judge a person until you've walked in his shoes.

 

Chris

[shirohniichan]

Great eulogy, Greg.

 

I lost contact with Cameron after he moved out to Colorado (2005? 2006?). I will remember him as the enthusiastic police explorer, sample slab collector, and all-around good guy.

[jom]

Great eulogy, Greg.

 

I lost contact with Cameron after he moved out to Colorado (2005? 2006?). I will remember him as the enthusiastic police explorer, sample slab collector, and all-around good guy.

 

I second that...thanks Greg. Like I mentioned in the other thread I had not seen Cameron in a year or more (since he left ICG or whoever it was). So I can't comment on Greg's info about the business dealings but it is spot on about rest of it. I always go by the ICG booth at the Long Beach show to see if he'd want to go to lunch...I just can't believe this..

 

jom

[K6AZ]

Kiefer did have a good personality but something went very wrong in the last couple of years. I'm going to leave out a lot of my observations since they haven't been taken well in other places.

 

Kiefer left behind a wife and two kids who were truly innocents in all this. A fund has been set up for his family and I would encourage everyone to help out with anything they can. I haven't looked at all the threads here so if hasn't been posted here I'll be happy to pass along the details.