Henri Charriere

Why can't we simply call it an 1817 over an 1813?

But a grade is simply a number; a CAC sticker is an affirmation, a symbol that stands for something. Would it be fair to assume you bought the coin with sticker attached -- and were simply unaware you paid more for the coin? (This is a rhetorical question.) I am not a car collector, but if I were and the car I chose were a Rolls Royce, I would expect to see the Spirit of Ecstasy hood ornament, front and center if only to distinguish it from all the other boxes on the road.

Indubitably (and I am not about to argue with someone who has never been challenged successfully before) but I simply wanted to point out that if you have an encapsulated coin from an unknown source -- there is an app for that: an approved procedure that many members may not be aware of. On the plus side, although crack-outs run counter to my religious convictions, there is a case to be made that submitting a coin encapsulated by another TPGS reeks of an appearance of impropriety, i.e., if A has declared it to be an AU-58, maybe we ought to use that as the baseline and depart from the opinion rendered if the evidence suggests it. I must say you raise a valid point. Edit: I would be remiss in my duty to be a responsible collector if I failed to consider the possibility of a collector returning the label of a cracked-out coin is nil consequently skewing the population or census of a coin toward the never-never land of inaccuracy and distrust.

[As an aside, my local butcher decided to replace his wall clock. When I asked him why, he answered matter-of-factly the word "choice" for cuts of meat was passe. The new term was "prime." Maybe numismatists ought to occasionally review their terminology.]

Whatever happened to Brilliant Unc. and Gem Unc., or do they run higher?

A word about eBay, which I have used a number of times because of my confidence in myself as a discriminating collector. To begin with prices are all over the map because the only requirement is the seller describe their item accurately. Your holder is old and a good selling point with some buyers who prefer that vintage look. There are others who might object that the holder is neither of the top two TPGS. I am not big on gold but it is hard not to really like gold that is over a hundred years old and still retains its beauty minus the usual wear and tear. If I were you, I believe depending on the size of the estate, I'd go for a reputable auction house or try my luck selling directly to the public via eBay. Believe me, if you are not inclined to have things drawn out, you may want to check prevailing prices as you've done, take approximately 30% off the Fair Market Offer as a rule of thumb and see how the market reacts. Special note: Gold prices have fallen and you may wish to wait. However, if waiting is not an option, coins are not your thing, and you have more pressing matters to attend to, I see no harm in checking sheets to see exactly where you stand. The worst enemy of a collector, or owner of a good coin, is feeling rushed. Do your due diligence and take your time making a decision. And listen carefully to what the experts, many of whom have not offered their views yet, have to say. And good luck!

But I thought it was well-settled that by its very designation, MINT STATE, or Uncirculated to old-timers like me, implies the total absence of noticeable wear, prominent provenance, or not?

Funny hobby. An impossible to overlook chop-mark large enough to accommodate the complete works of Shakespeare is perfectly alright, but show up with a coin replete with abrasions, contusions, incisions, striations and lacerations -- and your heirloom brimming with sentimentality is unilaterally downgraded, and you are shunned.

Acceptable answer, and we haven't even broached the subject of the pandemic and its effect on turn-around times.

Personally, I would leave it as is. The coin and holder speak volumes all by themselves. The only dissenter, God bless him, would be VKurtB. He prefers to physically examine coins, raw and unencapsulated, by his fingertips.

Apparently, but what I'd like to know is if any collector dissatisfied with the grade given, submits it to CAC, has it green-beaned which infuriates him enough to crack it out and resubmit it to the same TPG, or a different one. Unfortunately, with grading and the spectrum of factors considered, there is no right or wrong answer -- and the collectors who resist submission for encapsulation are plum out of luck: CAC does not evaluate raw coins.

Gorgeous piece!

Interesting. It's got a rarely seen left profile of the President, a denomination, and best of all, a date that, if memory serves, precedes the laying of the cornerstone of the U.S. Mint. A beautiful piece. (My uneducated guess is this is neither a coin or medal but an experimental pattern.)

Not entirely true. On the official serial-numbered NGC Submission Form regarding CrossOvers, the last line states: "Coins holdered by other grading services are not eligible for CrossOver and must be removed from their holders and submitted raw (not holdered), or they may be submitted in their holders if they are accompanied by NGC's Consent to Remove Coin(s) from Holder(s) Form." Three paragraphs down, printed in red, is the direction: "Sign the Consent to Remove Coins ( on the back of this cover sheet) if applicable, and include with submission." On the back of the cover sheet, headed: "CONSENT TO REMOVE COIN(S) FROM HOLDER(S)" is a line italicized in red which reads, as follows: To be completed only if submitted coin(s) were previously graded and encapsulated by a third-party grading service other than NGC, NCS or PCGS.

😉

I like the story and I am sticking with it. However, out of respect for the membership, I will not repeat it. I especially love the part of disintegrating original old bags being replaced by new. Frankly, I didn't think Modwriter had it in him to come up with something so plausible, alarm bells rang in the abodes of experts across the country. On the positive side, let this serve as a lesson to newbies to Question Everything. There was a debate recently, off-line somewhere, with collegiate types (or perhaps book publishers) suggesting footnotes ought to be dispensed with entirely, whether at the bottom of a printed page or following a chapter, or in a section of its own at the back of a book. Without references to the original sources, what is the researcher left with? Bupkis! Consequently, Question Everything as our RWB and Goldfinger1969 have done. And kudos to Modwriter for brightening up each of our April Fool's Days!

To again borrow a line from an old Twilight Zone episode... You, RWB are perspicacious... very perspicacious.

Brett Charville, President, PCGS

Modwriter, you never cease to amaze. Is there an app for this or would you settle for one of Alex's hero-worshipping emojis? Superb detective work; I am mightily impressed.

This account, which reflects the intimate personal insider knowledge of an actual participant is plausible, credible, and above reproach. If any collector worthy of the name agrees, a GoFundMe site should be set up immediately -- yes, even years after the fact -- to fully reimburse "AM kryptonitecomics" for out-of-pocket expenses incurred in carrying out this action. When a bank like Wells Fargo agrees to pay $3,000,000,000 to settle criminal charges and a civil action stemming from its mistreatment of its customers in its community bank over a 14-year period (2002-2016) it should come as no surprise that it had no compunction to "using its employees to use fraud to meet impossible sales goals." We owe the kryptonite guy a debt of gratitude for bringing these sordid details to light.

No conspiracy -- and No Alex's emojis, please! I have spent many a sleepless night withstanding the brunt of his unrelenting blows by fists and sledgehammers. I know how grading works but it doesn't mean I am obliged to like it. If the running commentary is any indication, neither do RWB, Conder -- or for that matter, VKurtB. I'll go further... when one TPGS' Grading Finalizer assigns a grade another TPGS refuses to cross-grade resulting in the loss to a collector of some $600. and change, that person is being deprived of property (money) without the benefit of due process of law. [HOT TIP: As some of you may have heard, a true collector has made his presence known on NGC's Set Registry for French 20-franc gold roosters, seemingly out of nowhere, with a big splash snagging the #3 spot with some of the finest examples of gold roosters known to civilized man. Consequently, I am dissolving my holdings here, gifting my raw examples and awaiting The Call every collector hopes to receive: "This Q? Thought you might be interested to know we recently obtained a 1902 MS-64..." My only other wish is to acquire a Rooster of any date in MS-68 condition before my untimely demise. Regrettably for me, price is no object, an affliction undoubtedly explored in more detail in the latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (DSM-5.) Back on Track: I continue to maintain, apparently against popular sentiment, that under the circumstances hereinabove described by the OP, I would be disinclined to have the coins graded.

Your input is much appreciated. Thank you.

I have tried a number of times without success.

[Wait'll Goldfinger1969 sees these! You're in good hands and experienced for a Newby!

Welcome to the Forum! I have no clue as to how many you have, their condition, possible scarcity -- or anything else for that matter, but if it isn't too much trouble there are helpful members here who will suggest you post photos of your coins, front (obverse) and back (reverse) to better enable them to advise you. Generally speaking, cleaning is frowned upon. Many a good coin has been ruined forever by owners who thought cleaning might enhance their appearance. Collectors prefer coins like yours in their original, raw state. Morgans are wonderful; be sure to always handle them with care, by their edges. Who knows, you may be sitting on a treasure you never knew you had. P.S. As regarding the Morgans which have not been formally graded, it is always a good idea as to their relative worth before submission. Everyone here is here to help you. I do hope the ones you've already submitted meet with your approval grade-wise. Bear in mind with the pandemic, the submission turn-around times are understandably taking longer. Be patient.