Fenntucky Mike

On 1/30/2024 at 4:52 PM, Gem38 said:

Can u tell me if someone melted or heated this one

Looks more like it was hit by a Mack Truck. I don't see any obvious signs of heat damage, usually you'll see areas that look like someone popped a chewing gum bubble or discoloration. Could have been exposed to heat at some point but when a coin gets to this stage who knows or cares. The most important thing to know is that none of this happened while the coin was being produced. 

Could be MB-269.

Ok, below is a link to the CNS book where you can download a .pdf.

https://www.academia.edu/26698446/Vladimír_Hanibal_Emil_Novák_Malé_groše_Small_Groschen_Kleine_Groschen

The MB#'s are from Krause (The Standard Catalog of World Coins) and stand for Mishler-Bruce who were the catalogers of such pieces, I believe one or both had worked at Krause. At one point Krause was back-building catalogs, first to 1701 then to 1601-1700, but never completed a Standard Catalog for 1501-1600 even though a substantial amount of cataloging had been done. The MB#'s seem to mostly consist of coins who's existence predates 1601 and which were included in the last edition of the SCWC 1601-1700 as work was stopped on the 1501-1600 catalog. Not really helpful to your cause but I found it interesting and thought I'd post it for others to see. There is a viewable copy of the SCWC 1601-1700 which includes MB#'s, you can find it HERE. 

Krause is good, Numista is better but you have to take all of the information with a grain of salt, both are imperfect and neither contain all available info for every coin.I also just noticed that there is a notation for some of the MB#'s stating "Varieties Exist", if you really want to dive deep into these you're going to have to find more specialized references and don't be surprised if most and/or the best are in another language but I think you're close with the MB-269 so you might not have to delve too much more deeply. Good luck. 

On 1/28/2024 at 10:23 AM, Bassni said:

Is this a real coin and how much is it worth 

Looks real, worth 10¢ U.S.. How about posting the 6 pence?

On 1/28/2024 at 7:33 AM, Bassni said:

Is this a real coins and how much is it worth 

Welcome to the forum.

Could you post some pictures of the coin please.

On 1/27/2024 at 8:03 PM, VKurtB said:

I leave for the Berlin Coin Fair in 36 hours. First person experience, unencumbered by a spousal unit. 

Are there any specific coins that you'll be looking for? 

On 1/27/2024 at 8:36 PM, victor382 said:

Thanks, man.  The size and weight seem to be right. It sounds like the only way to determine the authenticity is to bring it to the pro.

If you know someone who specializes or is extremely familiar with these I would definitely take it to them. If you're talking about having this authenticated by a TPG that is also a good option if you're relatively certain it's authentic. If you lived near a TPG and could hand deliver it I'd say it'd be a no brainer, put a low dollar value on it and let them decide if it's real. If you're looking to sell it then you could talk with some of the major auction houses to see what they think.

On 1/27/2024 at 7:52 PM, Bart_RX7 said:

Hello Mike,

I'm trying to understand the following....my coin legend is HBR (see photos)

The numista MB-240 link here indicates the legend Lettering: RVDOL II D G // R I S A H B REX
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94685.html
Thus, can't be MB-240

The numista MB-241 link here indicates the legend Lettering: RVDOL II D G // R I S A H B REX
 https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94690.html
Thus, can't be MB-241

The numista MB-242 link below indicates following details for MM:
Mintmarks:
(bc) Dog's head left in circle - mintmaster Tobias Gebhardt
(bd) Star - mintmaster Christoph Schönfeld
 (bf) Dog's head left in shield - mintmaster Christoph Mattighofer
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces94694.html
Might be MB-242 if "dog's head left in circle" is proper description of MM at bottom (and not in?) circle in my photo
but, I question why there are no "dots" on both sides of the lettering for MB-242 coins like in my photo (varieties??)
Additionally, the Ngccoin price list shows that the (bc) version was "only used" in years 1577-1579 (not 1580 or later)
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/bohemia-maley-groschen-mb-242-1577-1600-cuid-115638-duid-296797

The numista MB-250 link below indicates following details for MM:
 "Hans Spiess MM is 1599-1603"; but, can't be MB-250 due to 1580 date
 https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces82135.html

Numista doe not have an MB-269 listing, but NGCCOIN link for MB-269 indicates MM says:
1580-1581 only, but has NO picture
"Obverse Legend: RVDOL.II.D.G.-R.I.S.A.G.H.B.R.
Reverse: Crowned 'R' between two floral ornaments, three-line inscription with date below."
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/search/1/?keywords=BOHEMIA||1580||Maley+Groschen|BOHEMIA+1580+Maley+Groschen
Thus, MB-269 seems like a strong possibility

I look forward to additional thoughts / information from you re: lettering, dates, MM etc
Perhaps the Numista details & pictures are wrong for some of the MBs ?!

respectfully,
Mark

Mark,

I haven't had a chance to look into these more but if I can find some time this morning before the  games start I'll poke around post what I find here.

On 1/27/2024 at 5:38 PM, VKurtB said:

Around the decimalisation, ALL decimal coins were struck at Llantrisant, and ALL pre-decimal coins were struck at the Tower Hill Mint in London. Her Majesty traveled to Llantrisant Wales to strike the first decimal coins personally. I frankly have no idea what Roger is talking about above, and frankly, neither does he. All Pyx coins, whether NIFC or circulating coins, are tested at the Trial of the Pyx. Roger may have his areas of expertise, but the coins of Britain ain’t among them. PERIOD. 

I believe Roger was talking about the die trial coins in the RM auction, HERE, and not the Pyx coins but he'll have to speak to that. I agree that the die trial pieces are a bit contrived but trial pieces they are none the less, it says so right on them. 

Image of one of the die trial coins being auction by the RM.

On 1/28/2024 at 1:05 AM, powermad5000 said:

I would be curious to know if proofs get the same type of handling

Yep, maybe not in all circumstances depending on the type of packaging and capabilities of the mint they were produced at but from what I've seen the proofs get placed into the same or similar grey tray then the tray goes onto a cart and rolled over to the packaging line where the process is automated. I'm not saying that what appears to be a mark on the OP's coin was absolutely caused by a suction cup used during packaging, but it's possible. I wouldn't think that the cup would be rigid enough to displace metal but it might leave a smudge or deposit some debris, something along those lines. 

Below is a video of proof sets being packaged in San Fran.

If I need a scope to see doubling then it just ain't worth looking at in the first place. 

It was nice to see the close up of the MM in the other thread though. 

On 1/27/2024 at 1:53 PM, DurfDuck said:

I was lucky enough to get a coinscope for Christmas and I found this strange mint mark on a Drummer Boy quarter. Would love to know what's going on here. Thanks! 

The mint mark took a hard hit which scraped the metal off the top and deposited it at the base, your image says it better than I ever could. Looks like there maybe a die chip in the MM, a curiosity but of no added value.

On 1/27/2024 at 2:43 PM, victor382 said:

Hi guys! Please help me with the price for this one. Thank you much!

First things first, is it a counterfeit? According to NGC this is the 9th most counterfeited coin.!

It looks like it has the "die lump" in the right place and the details seem sharp, idk, the obv seems flat and lifeless. I'm leaning towards it not being authentic, just doesn't look quite right to me. 

Others will jump in soon. Hope I'm wrong. 

On 1/27/2024 at 2:33 PM, Bart_RX7 said:

Hello Fenntucky Mike,
Thank you so much for all this great info…..!!

A few questions if I may:

1) Where is the table that cross references the C.S. 162 - C.S. 193 (or lines 1-10) vs the MB’s ??
2) Do any of these entries reference the MB-269 (1580-1581) ??
The Numista MB-240 and MB-241 entries clearly have different legends,
but I suppose it could be the MB-250 as you indicate (despite no dots around the verbiage). 
  (Not the MB-242 per Numista comment re: mint marks)

3) But, see insert at bottom re: mint marks according to Dietiker described in Numista
 https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces82135.html
Doesn’t this indicate the mint mark is Hans Spiess from 1599-1603, which makes the 1580 date impossible ??

Respectfully,
Mark

Comments

Previous KM#1018
Mint marks according to Dietiker:

I don't know what reference the MB #'s are used in (presumably Krause?), that being said the table I posted is from a book published by the Czech Numismatic Society so I'm pretty sure that it will not cross to which ever reference the MB#'s are in. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if several varieties are lumped under one MB# as those seem to be base on where the coins were produced. I'll take a look at Krause when I get a min later tonight and if I can find it again I'll post the link for the CNS book, it's available to download. 

I think your piece is most likely MB-240 due to the similarity of the MM to one used in Prague and the date.

I don't think the MM on your piece resembles the one used by Hans Spiess but you have the coin in hand and, as I said, the dies were made by hand and some artistic license taken. 

On 1/26/2024 at 4:22 PM, RWB said:

These are not legitimate "trial pieces" as understood by American collectors. There is no connection to real circulating coinage.

These were deliberately made to catch a buck (or many bucks) from crows, mice and other accumulators of shiny objects. They are part of a product development and sales program put together by a contractor, and the "auctions" merely use Royal Mint trade dress to add an air of "legitimacy and gravitas" to the hawking of trinkets. (Compare to gem and jewelry sales on TV, or the "Royal Canadian Mint" scam.)

This is simply a gross abuse of the authentic Royal Mint's cachet.

Whatever cachet the RM had flew the coop a while ago, probably around decimalization time and the move to Llantrisant. The RM is suppling these trinkets.

On 1/26/2024 at 5:09 PM, Bart_RX7 said:

Hello,

see proper color balance in 2 new pics below....and cropped.

Sorry, I can't get any better pictures with my 12 megapixel Kodak camera and various lightings I've tried.

Note: I hope someone can give me a better definition of the 5 categories of Bohemia Maley described on NGCCOIN.COM
They basically all say the same thing !?!?  .... SEE write-up attached at bottom
(ONLY MB-269 gives Legend (...HBR) which does match my coin....and pictures of other coins I've seen have different legends)

Hopefully pictures below are decent enough to allow someone to give an opinion of whether condition is Fine or something else?

thanx...mark
 

 

 

 

 

Looks like it is probably MB-240 to me. 

I think the MB #'s are broke down by mint for these, MB-240 being Prague, and are identified by the mintmaster's mark of which there can be several. The MM most closely resembles that of Tobias Gebhardt but on your coin the MM is not within a shield, not necessarily a deal breaker but I'd do some more research on that.

Your coin does not need to exactly match another MB-240 coin, there will be differences, varieties, within these groupings based on what I'm seeing. I believe each die was handmade at the time and no two will be exact. 

Below is a list of legend varieties for Maley Groschen during the time of Rudolf II, published by the Czech Numismatic Society. If google translate is correct, your coin is a match for 6a which puts it at either Prague or Kuttenberg (MB-250) based on the date, which looks like 1580.? Hard to tell in the pics.  Hopefully this gives you a path forward and that someone more familiar with these will jump in. 

1) bez o p isu (Č .S.162)
2) RVD.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.G.H.B.REX (Č .S.183)
3) RVD .II.D.G.R.I.A.G.H.B.REX (K u p fe r ta b . 17/4)
4) R VDO .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .G .H .B .R . (K u p fe r ta b . 17/8)
5) R VDO L .II.D .G .I.S .A .G .H .B .R E (sb írka H a n .)
6a) RVDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S.A .H.B.R (Č .S.186)
6b) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.H.B.RE (Č .S.187)
6c) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.H.B.REX (Č .S.189)
6d ) RVDOL .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .H .BO .R E (sb írka H a n .)
6e) R VDO L .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .H .BO .R FX (Č .S.193)
6f) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.A.HV.B.REX (sb írka H a n .)
6g) RVDOL .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .H V .BO .R E (sbírka H a n .)
7a) R VDO L .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .G .H .B .R (Č .S.150)
7b) R VDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S .A.G .H .B .RE (Č .S.155)
7c) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S .A.G .H .B .RE X (Č .S.148)
7d) R V D O L .II.D .G .R .I.S .A .G .H .BO .R (sb írka N o vá k )
7e) R VDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S .A.G E.H .B.R (Č .S.159)
7f) R V D O L .II.D .G .RO .I.S .A .G .H .B .R (Č .S.164)
7g) R V D O L .II.D .G .R O .I.S .A .G .H .BO .R (sbírka H a n .)
8) RVDOL .II.D.G.R.I.S.G.H.B.REX (D o n . 1664)
9) RVDOL.II.D.G.R.I.S.G.B.REX (D o n . 1690)
10) RVDOL .II.D .G .R .I.A .H .B .R (D o n .1728)

On 1/25/2024 at 7:52 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Then again, I have an inner bias which strongly suggests that mere participation in a ritual is not enough to get me to part with my dollars.

The coins are so beat up from handling I wonder why they bother to wear gloves.  I believe SB/NGC gave all of the coins adjectival grades due to condition. Who wants a PF60 coin when you can own a "Brilliant Proof" coin? 

It will be interesting to see what some of these go for since most, if not all, of the coins are ruined. Below are images from the SB website of one of the Pyx coins.

The Royal Mint has been dumping a lot of "specialized" material onto the market over the last few years, even holding their own auctions and looking for consignments. The RM currently has a trial piece auction open for bidding, HERE, and 2023 Trial of the Pyx coins consigned to SB with auction ending in February, HERE. 

What if the U.S. Mint could or did behave similarly, selling canceled dies, trial/test pieces, canceled coins, errors, coins from their archive or museum (if the Mint has one), etc., would collectors and the general public see this as a positive or negative. If the Mint donated such items to an institution to auction would collectors view that differently? 

Video from SB on the Pyx coins.

Nice! The '53 no fold is a looker. 

On 1/22/2024 at 5:59 PM, Marvel Maddness said:

It is thicker than a quarter but doesn't look like a regular quarter..could it be a proof quarter

Look at the edge as Sandon suggested or if you have a scale with .00 decimal weigh it, silver should be close to 6.25g and a clad 5.67g. 

On 1/22/2024 at 5:56 PM, Coinbuf said:

Are you sure its silver Mike?  We don't even know the date.

I'm not, I forgot that San Fran minted circulation strikes and clad proofs for these. I edited my post just before you posted. 

On 1/22/2024 at 5:33 PM, Marvel Maddness said:

Welcome to the Forum.

What about the quarter looks unique? Going to need a little more to go on before we can venture a guess. 

Edit: Didn't realize that San Francisco minted circulation strikes and clad proofs for these so the "S" mint mark does not automatically mean it's a proof or silver. 

On 1/19/2024 at 4:29 PM, Zebo said:

wonder if any escaped!

I suspect at least few did as samples to the bosses and dignitaries, maybe more if some made it out by other means. The coins were in production for weeks so plenty of opportunity for a few to make it out of the mint while they were backslapping and high fiving over the new coins. I wonder if the coins made it as far as being sent to banks for distribution in anticipation of receiving an ok from the EU?

On 1/19/2024 at 8:48 AM, Zebo said:

Just ordered what should be an interesting read. I attended a presentation on how the Sovereign helped win WW I, but this book includes the Tudor period through WW I. Just thought I would mention the book if anyone might be interested.

Thanks, I may add it to the pile.

On 1/19/2024 at 7:47 AM, edhalbrook said:

I don't get what is good about it. A good strike coin I assume. I being a beginner would have tossed it in with my junk coins. Trying to figure out what makes a dime good. Or better then good. 

I think joining a local coin club would benefit you greatly and going to a few shows to interact with other collectors and see some coins. A lot of coins. 

I don't collect Rooses but here are a few useful links about them and on grading. I'm sure there is a ton more out there if you do some searching.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/grading-roosevelt-dimes/

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6812/learn-grading-dimes/

https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Roosevelt/Grades

https://coinauctionshelp.com/howtograde_rooseveltdimes.html