zadok

wasnt specifically addressing gold coins....just foreign coins in general...my experience is that pcgs foreign almost never cross over at ngc at their certified grade, im sure a combination of grading standards n tpg bias , seems pcgs grades on the high side, i personally dont think their foreign graders as experienced as ngc as far as knowing the nuances of foreign minting procedures...plus ngc foreign registry sets far n away better than pcgs, pcgs foreign registry pretty pathetic, i wouldnt even list a set in their registries....as for US grading i believe pcgs has a slight edge, seems their high grade coins bring slight premium over ngc n their US registry sets very strong...sort of a matter of deciding why one buys their coins...just to have? guess one almost as good as other...if wanting to go registry route then id say ngc the better...crossing over? matter of personal experience n i try buy ngc if buying foreign, if US i just go with the coin n price....

Next FUN item: the crowd. Summer FUN was neither particularly busy nor particularly slow. It was 2019 typical, in terms of crowd. I am told that Thursday was the busiest day. I was only there Friday and Saturday. The NGC table was always crushed on those two days. Dealers who had tray after tray of slabbed Morgan dollars looked slow to me because, who cares, right? But dealers with any specialty area all seemed to be doing a great business. Presentations were well attended and properly promoted over the P. A. system. The club tables had lots of attention, probably because most had Treasure Trivia clues. CONECA in particular always seemed busy, as was ANA and the combined Seated and Barber collectors’ table. The kids, about half in Scouting uniforms on Saturday, were in decent numbers. I gave out all the recent Kennedy halves I brought to give to kids.

r roosters actually housed or r they cooped?.....bored minds want to know.....

What safe place is that exactly, Roger???? He was on the floor of the bourse at Summer F.U.N. this past Saturday. And Bernie never served a single day! Or did that escape your attention, Mr. Über Researcher? Still spewing ill-informed nonsense I see, Roger. Carry on. It’s what you do. You get pretty rambunctious when there’s no federal judge around to keep YOU in line.

Still a crook.

I was completely unaware of this gentleman or Liberty dollars. So if nothing else this was good fuel for reading and learning something new. I have no dog in this fight per se, but I will give my two cents (you can choose US currency or Liberty dollars the decision is yours on which two cents). 
 
I think it would be a reach to call this man a counterfeiter. His coins are not any more convincing than any other silver round on the market, many of which copy historic designs exactly. Further his notes were nothing more than private Silver certificates no different than buying silver futures. It equates to buying silver for a current price with the promise taking possession of the silver in the future at that price. So I don’t think anyone can accuse him of counterfeiting and pass the red face test. Just another flavor of widely accepted practices. 
 
The issue, in my opinion, has more to do with how one interprets both of the following:
1. “intended for use as current money” in Title 18 Chapter 25 Sec 486
2. Constitutional powers of government. 
 
Issue 1 - intended for use as current money. While his actions weren’t intended to deceive anyone with counterfeit money in my opinion, it is intended to be used as legal tinder. The following is an excerpt copied from the existing Liberty Dollar website:
”US dollar backed only by government debt is bad for everyone! That's why I created the Liberty Dollar.
If someone gave you a choice between a stack of ordinary ten-dollar bills and a stack of ten-dollar bills that were printed on the back with a coupon for 5 gallons of gasoline, good at any gas station in the country, which would you choose?
The first stack is just dollar bills. The second stack is also dollar bills, or if gas prices go up, you can use the back of the bills and fill your tank.
You'd have to be crazy to take the first stack! Right? Why not get the benefits of a negotiable currency coupled with the redeemability for a useful commodity, in this case, gasoline? If gas prices go up, you win while everyone else complains about the high cost of gas! If prices don't rise, you still have your ten-dollar bills!
On the other hand, when you hold US dollars, you own debt that you will eventually have to repay. When you give US dollars to someone as payment, they now have debt. Ouch!” 
This seemingly does point to his intent to make an alternate form of money to be used in commerce today despite his explicit comments to the contrary  
 
This now brings us to issue two - constitutional powers. Does the government have a monopoly on issuing tender for commerce?
 
Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution specifically gives Congress power to "borrow money" and also power to "coin money and regulate the value" of both U.S. and foreign coins, and regulate interstate commerce, but does not explicitly and unambiguously grant Congress the power to print paper money or make it legal tender.
Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution explicitly forbids the states from issuing "bills of credit" (promissory notes) or making anything but gold and silver coin legal "tender". 
 
Many legal scholars have argued both the intent and the spirit of this legislation and how it should be applied in a multitude of ways. The judge in the NORFED case held that because the Constitution prohibits the states from issuing money, it should be inferred that the drafters also meant to forbid private parties from doing so. This is a big inference in my mind. 
 
To further complicate this I do agree with Kurt in that this should be evaluated under the same lens as crypto currency. It is also intended to replace US government tender with other instruments. Intent may differ whereby NORFEDs goal was to back specie with PMs to hedge inflation while some crypto’s have the goal of alluding oversight. 
 
In summary my opinion, and it’s just that an opinion, is:
1. He isn’t counterfeiting any more than silver rounds or silver futures are counterfeiting. 
 
2. The underlying issue is was this attempting to replace current money, and if so is that illegal or constitutionally allowed?
3. The counterfeiting charge served as a proxy for concerns over replacing current money under the relevant statute. 
 
4. While I don’t right now have my mind made up as to whether constitutionally the founders intended solely for the federal government to issue tender for commerce or not, I do think that this situation isn’t unique. If this is deemed unlawful then so should silver rounds and silver futures. I do think it is interesting that the constitution makes allowance for states to set silver and gold as tender specifically and seemingly has more concern over Un-backed notes. 
 
A very long winded way of laying out the facts needed to form an opinion, and not a firm opinion of right or wrong. Made for some good reading on the beach this morning. 

A common crook busy scamming trusting people. He was, and continues to want to, steal from others.
Von Nuthouse is in a safe place, away from the people he wants to cheat. Now, if some other notorious counterfeiters could find similar accommodation, everyone would benefit.

I used to trust Fauci, but I lost it all. Like seemingly most people lately in the sciences, he talks in the vocabulary of absolute truths when at best he’s dealing in a world of “this is more likely than not, as far as we can know right now.” Too much unwarranted verbal certainty. I can see why RWB likes that. He suffers from the same malady. 

At present rates, Covid 19 will wipe out possibly 10% of the stupid who refuse to be vaccinated, and disable another 20% of the same. Those with long Covid and other associated conditions will also ADD to the welfare and public assistance roles. Consider how that could change election outcomes....

OK, I'll provide facts.
Fact: Official COVID deaths is 6 million over the past 18 months. 3 million people die of hunger every month, so 54 million died of hunger since COVID. 
Fact: People who have/had COVID, but died due other reason were still called "COVID deaths" because the government was reimbursing hospitals at a significantly higher rate for COVID victims. Therefore, the official number is likely greatly inflated.
Fact: Dr. Fauci has flip-flopped more than a fish out of water. He is politically biased. He is completely untrustworthy. He is clueless. 
I have no bias against science, but if you bothered to do even the slightest bit of research on scientific topics, you'd be horrified. Scientific studies that are never replicated for more conclusive proof; money forces scientists to start with the outcome the money wants and work their way backwards; published studies that are completely wrong, but reported in the media as fact; political motives driving the sciences; etc. 

...interesting questions in an equally interesting area of US coinage, deserving of some interesting numismatic discussion rather than the normal baiting trolling n posturing that usually shows up here, most of the threads deteriorate rapidly into ego massaging n back patting or philosophical one upmanship or stupid attempts at humor....
but to add to ur questions...branch mint proofs (pre-1900) r a very specific area of collecting in a very shallow pool of collectors n almost always expensive n with very few examples known, most of the referenced issues in the ngc article most likely wouldnt meet strict current day definitions of proof issues, but due to their exceptional strikes surfaces n eye appeal r not the same as their normal every day circulation business strike cousins n therefore have received proof attributions, they r superior coins n do deserve some degree of status, perhaps special strikes or specimen strikes would be more accurate, but they r what they r n if attributed as proofs will probably remain that way...
...generally speaking, proof coinage is produced with specially prepared dies on specially prepared planchets n struck multiple strikes with additional pressure, doubtful that any of the 19th century branch mints could meet those conditions, however, there is ample evidence that specially prepared coins were struck at the branch mints for various reasons...presentations, commemorations etc etc....those coins deserve to be segregated n attributed as special, proof just probably isnt the most accurate numismatic word to describe them....specimen or presentation strikes probably more appropriate....the term proof wasnt actually used to describe coins early in the 19th century but as with most everything else attributions evolve n have a life of their own....in reality no one person can establish themselves as the definer of what is n what isnt, the numismatic collecting community will determine that for themselves...dont look for attrubuted branch mint proofs to be reclassified by collectors, tpg or auction firms anytime in the near future...
as far as reference books on the subject, there arent any really nor will there be, just maybe chapters in broader subject books....too expensive to generate n publish a book on such a narrow subject area n only a few buyers of said book...
ur '97-S PL is just that, very nice coin, but if u should compare it side by side with a '97 proof from the P mint u will see the differences.....again interesting area for discussion....

In Idaho "Top Pop" means the most popular soft drink ("soda") in the town. It's what you drink while tubing on the Boise River (pronounced "Boy-see")
For a coin it refers only to those that have been graded by NGC, PCGS or ANACS - but naturally excludes all other coins of the same date and mint. Therefore, it's meaning is of limited practical use. Paying a big premium for a "top pop" coin, whose ranking can change tomorrow, is foolhardy.

Cheerios is a General Mills product. Maybe you could choose your examples with more regard for factual truth. But RWB gonna be RWB, right?

It's accurate that more recently, US collectors became more familiar with the circumstances surrounding these coins (some of it probably fiction but that's even better).  More recently being around 2002 when it last sold.  Prior to that, I'd rate it as predominantly just another entry in the Red Book to most US collectors, though not to those who could have bought it.
With the world coinage, it's predominantly only known by collectors where it originates, by relatively few collectors in the US, and on occasion, elsewhere. 
As an example, probably just about every South African coin collector is familiar with the origin of the Veld pond (a low mintage but available coin) or the 1898 "Single 9" pond (a unique "pattern" and their equivalent to any coin like the US 1933 DE).  Almost no one else has ever heard of either, just as coin collectors outside the US have mostly never heard of the 1933 DE, contrary to the sentiments you'll read in the US numismatic press and US coin forums.
The difference is that the US is the largest coin market (larger than all others combined by "market value"), is more financialized than any coin market, and has an outsized number of highly affluent buyers (relative to elsewhere) who have a history of paying higher prices.  Concurrently, since most collectors have a demonstrated preference for coins from their own country, that's why US collectors will pay current prices for US coinage but almost never from anywhere else.

amen.....

What BS.  I had a pedigree once and the lady did a great job on my nails.   
 
the background or history of a person or thing, especially as conferring distinction or quality.
"the scheme has a long pedigree"
synonyms:
origin · place of origin · birthplace · spring · wellspring · fount · starting point · history · provenance · derivation · root · etymology · beginning · genesis · start · rise · cause · author · originator · initiator · creator · inventor · architect · father · mother · provenience · fountainhead · begetter · radix

not totally accurate....pedigree can refer correctly to persons, animals and things......

But how many of those $1M+ world coins have sold for "even" $10M? And regardless of the answer, unless or until one of them exceeds the price paid for the 1933 Saint, I think it's fair to label it as "the most valuable coin."

close nuf for gov't work....

The 1933 Double Eagle reigns today, but other rarities could one day hold numismatics’ top spot. Learn more.

PCGS has a much lower share of submissions for world coinage and zero (to my knowledge) for ancients.  I wouldn't expect them to emphasize anything other than US coinage.
Both firms have opened offices elsewhere but I have (on multiple occasions) expressed what I believe is the obvious conclusion that TPG will never achieve anything close to US scale in other coinage, outside of NCLT.  Even aside from acceptance, most of it will never be worth enough and outside of a limited number of countries (mostly Europe), much of it is too scarce in a quality where hardly anyone would want it graded.
Second, unless they are going to just market TPG grading generically, not sure what you would hope to see.  The "world coin market" is too fragmented.  I use this wording in quotes because the very term is itself US centric.  To collectors elsewhere, US coinage is or may be "world" coinage as well.  I do see a clear dividing line between US coins and all others by collectors elsewhere but most of them aren't collecting coins from everywhere as is done by US based collectors.  There is no market (at US or the supposed market prices) for most "world coins" locally, for either buying or selling.

2 out of 3 not too shabby....if it were baseball ud be in the hall of fame at cooperstown...first two seem plausible n realistic...number 3, ur thinking only in terms of US minting which is fine if that is the parameters...several of the other mints in the world define their specimen strikings not so much as to special planchets, dies or presses but to the handling of the coins after striking, i.e. king nortons mint describe their specimen strikes as to the fact that after striking the coin is manually removed from the dies n segregated from all other coins n placed in separate envelopes thereby not coming into contact with other coins, normally these specimen coins r from the very first coins struck from that issue n archived as such, technically speaking the last specimen strike n the first circulation strike would be virtually indistinguishable from each other, except for their handling following the minting process.....essentially subsequent handling following striking as opposed to special preparations prior to striking.....

That works for me too, as a replacement for my #3.

much the same as croupiers do at gaming tables with casino chips....

no....