GoldFinger1969

Like the 1918-19 Spanish Flu.

We should have something in a few months -- vaccine or treatment -- plus the virus may burn itself out. Also, we may never get a 2nd wave. We'll know alot more by November. Still hopeful for FUN 2021.

Unless everybody came from a short drive, it's hard to believe anybody thought it would be able to be pulled off. You travel from the wrong city or state, you may have to quarantine for a few days or weeks.

Saint Pricing When Gold Was $325/oz: I was looking at the price guide and I noticed that the premium for commons in bullion grades for coins like the 1924 was much higher than what you see today in the late-1990's. It was LOWER in absolute dollars, of course, but higher as a percentage. The premium for MS65's was also much higher than what you see today (100% or more compared today to about 20-25%). Those of you active back then (late-1990's)....do you concur ? Prices and premiums tend to be sticky to the downside during declining prices and dealers do need to make money, so maybe even if prices had laid low at $300 or so for a few years more..... the premiums for MS 63 commons and MS65 gems would not have fallen more -- agreed ? I'll bet even MS67's could be had for under $2,000...maybe $1,500 for certain years back then. Ugg....boy, do I wish I was active and in the market 20+ years ago !!

That seems high. As testing increases, the numbers come down. Even that town in Italy has seen deaths drop 90% in 3 months.

I think it SHOULD and WILL, Kurt. You can't go 2 years without a show (in FUN's case, it would be 1 show cancelled unless you count Summer FUN. But 2 years between January FUNs if they cancel FUN 2021). With plenty of time, assuming the C-19 has receeded, folks will be able to plan and act accordingly.

So glad I forced myself to go to FUN in January....could be the last "normal" coin convention in a long time.

Off-Topic...I saw the comet last night from Sullivan County, NY. It was very low in the horizion after 10 PM PM but we still saw it naked-eye. Looked great through 15x50 binoculars and small telescopes.

Great commentary, thanks Roger ! And if I can segue to an off-topic...I hope everybody reading this thread and in these forums has checked out Comet Neowise or will do so....look in the Northwest sky after sunset, about 15 degrees high. You have another week of good viewing...it keeps getting higher in the sky (good) but will start to fade too (bad) and will be gone in a few weeks.

More 1933 Musings..... Re-reading the Ernest Kehr section, I note that the initial sale that triggered the investigation -- the Flanagan Coin -- was expected to sell for $2,000 in 1944. That meant that the coin had appreciated 100-fold in 11 years !! That amount was almost what the higher-ups at the Philly Mint would make in a year's salary. It was alot of money in 1944. I have no doubt that as Roger notes that the initial investigation was biased and botched, that envy and jealousy played a role in determining that all 1933's were "stolen" because they were clearly worth alot of $$$ (the last Saints ever struck as it turned out). Imagine a regularly-issued coin from 2009 (11 years earlier, like the 1933 Saints in 1944) that today was worth a year's average salary (like $50,000).

Would Treasury have CARED ? We had a Depression, the DJIA was heading for 41 in July 1933 down from 389 in September 1929 down 90%...and 10-15 banks were failing every day. The 1933's were just a bunch of coins that might trade at a $5-$10 premium to a bunch of wealthy coin collectors in Philadelphia, New York, and Boston. As you have said repeatedly, if prior to April 12th, 1933 anybody had come in with 5 or 50 or even 250 gold coins dated 1932 or 1931 or 1928 or 1924....and exchanged them for 1933's....the Philly Mint and all the higher-ups wouldn't have cared so long as the total gold was unchanged. Treasury didn't say issue the 1933's...and they didn't say DON'T issue them. They were concerned with total gold holdings -- exchanges were still OK (why they weren't AFTER April 12th, 1933 still escapes me). I think you said in the book they had many more important things than worrying about what mint marks were flowing out of the Philly Mint, if any. Why they even had the hard cut-off of April 12th, 1933 and why they would do that AND keep striking 1933's through May still escapes me. Not sure we'll ever know what they were thinking, even with your in-depth and voluminous research.

The reason I keep coming back to this timing and oversight split at the Philly Mint....it's key to the whole thing about whether the 1933 coins (or any coins, if you include the 43 replacements) were "authorized" for release. Thanks for clearing it up again. Now I think I'll re-read your 1933 chapter for the umpteenth time.

Boy, this can get tricky/confusing.

Define "delivery"......is that when the Cashier gets the coins, which would have been AFTER the Superintendent OK'd the coins as being physically OK weight-wise and OK'd their transfer to the Cashier, right ?

Roger, do you know if the Mint saying that 1st Delivery of 1933's was on March 15th (above) implies they acknowledge your position that the 1st strikings were done on March 2nd ? Basically, 13 days later for the 1933's that weren't counted as replacements for the 1932's to get to the Cashier. My understanding was that before you found the note on March 2nd...their position was that 1st Striking was on March 15th and that meant delivery was about March 29th (again, 14 days later).

I want a coin that is struck for the 1st time during a "Bewitched" Marathon on either MeTV, Nick-At-Night, or COSI TV.

Do you have a solution ? Seems like the edge of the Saints contains alot of information aside from the Obverse and Reverse.

So it has to be done at the grading company before the coin is slabbed, and then put on the label.

Yeah, not much meat on the bones, I hear you. Maybe we should inform one of those investigative TV shows and they can turn it into a good 1-hour documentary ?

Conder, didn't the earliest versions of PCGS's holders let you see SOME of the edge, even if not all of it ? The OGH's and others that followed at least didn't 100% block it like the holder above, right ?

The coin also looks pretty solid for the grade (MS65). Roger Burdette's new book on Saint-Gaudens DE's has lots of information on the varieties and die strikes of the 1909-S, as I am sure Mark is aware (since HA puts out the book).

What I find amazing is that there's plenty of speculation about guilty parties in the 1933's from Mint and USSS folks -- Switt, McGann, various dealers, etc. -- but I don't see a single name mentioned or a time frame on the 1928's. I know, I know, there was nothing to be found as you say -- still.....FIND SOMETHING !!! And again....I find it very interesting that most of their efforts seemed to get the legislation passed to take Dressel off the hook. Not saying I think he should have been punished, I think he was innocent and just unlucky. But I really find the Mint's obsession on their part to get the law changed and not find ANY LEADS rather baffling. And while this is going on (during a World War, no doubt).....they're busting chops on the 1933's !!! And I still think their totally getting hornswoggled on the 1928's led to their hard-a** attitude on the 1933's. I can't prove it, but the obsession to me stands out. Almost like...we got totally taken by someone on an entire bag of 1928's...let's track down a bunch of 1933's that got exchanged (based on No Gold Missing) just so we can deprive some coin dealers of a few hundred bucks of speculative profit. Rant off.....

Mark, how did your uncle end up with the coin and not your mother or father (or any other of your grandmother's children) ? Not sure when the handoff to you took place (unclear if after or before your grandmother passed away), but the coin had to have appreciated. Nice that your uncle was more concerned with familial bonds than $$$ and rightfully recognized that you should have the coin.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd never buy that holder unless I had to. Even the look -- totally encased in solid white plastic -- doesn't appeal to me aside from the inability to see the edges. Again, maybe it's just me.

Not that it matters...but I bet that the 1909-S was pretty much worth face value when Mark's grandmother got married, maybe $25-$30 tops given the condition. Today, that coin is worth about $5,000 it appears, give or take. Looks like the price takes off right at about the MS66 level. Beautiful coin, beautiful story.