GoldFinger1969

I was big into baseball cards because of my young cousins (I'd take them around to conventions in the NY-NJ area). When we were active -- late-1980's, early-1990's -- most cards were NOT graded. I believe I recall some cards being graded by PSA because I remember the 1-10 scale (wasn't as well thought of at the time as the 1-100 scale). But the cards were given a grade by dealers and it was generally EASIER to grade a baseball card than a coin: Make sure the card has 4 sharp corners. Look for well-centered on the front, decent centering on the back No scuff or blemishes on the front or back, especially on the player himself No bubble gum stains (this wasn't a concern when grading double eagles !! ) Of course, the big thing that caused a scandal and is still a big stink (there are active blogs and message forums dedicated to exposing them) is cutting the cards to give them sharp corners. That's what the sellers of the T-206 Honus Wagner did to the card that Gretzky bought. Unless you brought measuring equipment, you couldn't check that at the time of purchase.

I don't know much about those coins, but I suspect many were just bubble-peaks that really didn't reflect a TRUE market with multiple sales at those prices on the way up or down. If you look at something popular and liquid -- like the 1995-W ASE -- there was a single trade at $86,000....lots of trades at $25,000 - $35,000.....and the market last I checked (I could be off a bit) was $10-$15K for a PF70 depending on the additional label inducements. Is it down a lot ? Yup....is it down 80-90% ? Only if you use the outlier high price.

I've posted before about commemoratives going down 80-85% from their bubble peaks but I don't know of many (bullion) coins selling for 1-2% of their peaks 20 (??) years ago. The PCGS sub-indices have the percentage drops.

I was entertaining Timothy Leary after he spoke at our college in the early-1980's. Guy was drinking Tequilla until 2 AM at the local mall. Uggh.....

Did it ? As of this month, both PCGS and NGC have graded over 30 million coins in the U.S. Not sure how long cards have been graded (a few years ?) but whatever the graded total is already you can add 10 MM (or more) that could be graded tomorrow and the backlog appears to dwarf anything at the TPGs had int he past, even in the 1980's (upon commencing of operations) or 1990's (post-bubble). Which coins specifically crashed ? It may take a while for the supply to catch up with demand before prices fall. We saw it with the 1990's Crash as card supply went from 250 MM to 1.2 billion.

You have to admit that a judge who was a numismatist or coin collector (even as a kid) might have set down different rules for the Langbord Trial.

I think that was an episode of "The Super Friends" in the 1970's.

The supply of top-ranked cards will increase, lessening the premium they command compared to raw ungradeds or existing low-gradeds. I wonder why they don't use AI, lasers, hi-def scanners, etc. to grade many of these cards. It should be easy to check for sharp corners and make sure dimensions are correct (no trimming) compared to the naked eye. Many of these cards are worth under $100 and certainly $500 -- no need for human eyes to look them over except in special circumstances. I have a few dozen cards worth grading but I guess I'll be sending them in about 2025 or so....

And Bezos gave $100 MM each to a chef and some guy who whines on TV despite being a millionaire.

I thought PCGS just had "Deep Cameo" and NGC used "Ultra Cameo" ?

Numis, what happened to the prices specifically that you say "tanked" ?

They are an economic power to be reckooned with just as the old USSR was a military power to be reckoned with. But they may have peaked or are peaking just like Japan peaked in 1989. Demographics are a son of a b****. China has passed the Lewis Point on labor entrants and if GDP growth is a function of inreases in productivity and labor supply, the latter is no longer positive but negative (the U.S. still has positive because of immigration and birth rates). Which will eventually show up in GDP figures in coming years....and no doubt prove provenance of ownership for those 1933 Saints.

It's high-ranking Treasury and government officials stating it. They can MAKE the policy.

Appears there could be tens of millions of sports cards (mostly baseball) that people want graded and there simply aren't enough graders to handle things. Backlog is 1 year and growing and they're not even taking new submissions: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31244566/hobby-searches-answers-psa-grading-services-halts-card-submissions

We had a 35-year bear market (rising yields, falling prices) in bonds from the end of WW II to 1981 when the 30-year Treasury topped 15%. Since then it's been a 40 year downdraft in inflation and bond yields. Ed Yardeni likes to say that trade and open markets are deflataionary and 8 years after the peak in inflation/bond yields we had the end of communism and lots of new markets. China opened up under Deng Xiaoping and you had TENS OF MILLIONS of new entrants to the labor force every year for close to 40 years producing cheap goods. Asian Tigers, too. Well, that all could be reversing now. China is clearly seen as an unreliable WTO trade partner -- copyright violations, human rights problems, intellectual theft, computer viruses, Covid viruses, threats against S. Korea/Japan/Taiwan/other countries -- and their "1 Child, 1 Couple" policy from 1960-2000 is finally biting them in the butt as they now LOSE millions of workers a year. "Just in time" inventory has now been replaced by "supply chain diversity" especially with regards to China. If they don't have cheap labor and they score lousy on ESG metrics and your warehouse can be seized by the People's Army, who needs it ? China's labor forces is shrinking....wages are going up....forget per-capita, their GDP may not even eclipse ours in the aggregate as was expected to happen by 2025 or 2030. They may not get much past 80-85% of our GDP. Inflationary and deflationary trends take a while to form. We could be making one big U-Turn from deflation to inflation or even moderate inflation (2-4% a year) which would be as big a change as double-digit inflation was in the 1970's. If inflation is now 2-4% a year instead of 0-2% a year, bond yields have to go alot higher and that has implications for the stock market (bad), budget financing (terrible), pensions (good), the EU (bad), and lots of other things. Which brings me back to the 1933 Saints......

Huh ? You couldn't have bought more than 10 gallons, you get that much MPG even on a hybrid ?

I'm a small-fry and if not for the high-res pics on HA Archives, I never would have joined and thrown them all the business I have. Hope they don't change a thing.

Besides the 1933 Saint, 1913 Liberty Nickel....didn't I read that technically all/most patterns could be seized...the 1856 Flying Eagle cent....and a few other coins ?? What do they all have in common such that I kept reading -- from posters and numismatists -- that recent precedents could be used to declare them illegal despite multiple sales over the decades/centuries ?

Should I get my Pooper Scooper ??

Gee, what a surprise. Someone wake up Legrome Davis and let him know !! This article pretty much sums up my sentiments: https://coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-jury-verdict-in-the-case-of-the-langbord-1933-double-eagles-20-gold-coins/

Yes good point....but my point is that Mint insiders had perks and it's quite likely that McCann and/or others helped themselves to special coins at times to make a few $$$ on the side. QDB has written on this. Of course I can't prove it, but if the value of a 1933 Saint was alot lower and the people in possession of them were not the financial equivalent of today's hedge fund operators but farmers and seamstresses and day laborers....I doubt the Treasury Dept. goes all-out to confiscate. JMHO....can't prove it, but nothing about the story leads me to believe who had the coins wasn't taken into account when it was decided to seize them.

Charles Barber helped himself to 8 pattern MCMVII Ultra High Reliefs, something not available to other Mint employees or the public. Was that authorized or illegal under the law ? Show me where the possession of 1933's was declared to be ILLEGAL under the law.

The burden of proof has to be on the government to prove that the coins were ILLEGALLY taken from the Mint. They never did that. I don't have to come up with "what ifs" -- the government should have to prove that ownership of 1933 DEs was illegal and that is how Switt-Langbord's came into the coins. They never did.

Not to me. If the governement considered the release of 1933 Double Eagles to be a precursor to the destruction of the Republic, then they should have ordered their immediate sequestration and/or destruction. They were just 1933 mint year coins -- nothing more. If the coins were worth $35 per coin like the MCMVII High Reliefs right after their minting, nobody would have given a damn, Kurt. Instead, they were worth $1,000 and more by the early-1940's and the government suddenly decided they shouldn't have been released. When they sold for alot less in the 1930's, they didn't care. What a shocker..............

Usually because we don't have the book or reference material at our disposal. Biggest differences I see in the 2 coins (not sure which is which): "ASG" is positioned differntly.....right arm is more muscular but kind of "flattish".....rays a bit longer on bottom coin. Which is the revised coin ?