GoldFinger1969

I get how someone COULD feel that way -- but I would think just accumulating as much as one could financially would be achievement enough. If you got 30 out of the 53 Saints....or 40 or 45 or 50 or whatever....you still accomplished quite a feat. I think it's ingrained in all of us to collect 100% of a set from those Saturday morning cereal commercials with the free prizes inside....Collect All 4...Keep Buying Captain Crunch Until You Get 'Em All !!!

I agree books are a valuable resource, but what's wrong about reading stuff on the internet and gathering information that way ?

The 1921 Specimen that we talked about earlier, the non-Ghiradelli Chocolate Family coin: https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/1921-20-pr64-ngc-cac-jd-1-r8-as-a-proof-pcgs-89172-/a/1333-3499.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515 Sold for $2,010,000 (including bp) yesterday. Coin was PR64+...Satin Finish Proof....Only 2 examples Known...JD-1, R.8 Proof. Looks like there could be some new information in the coin description put up by Heritage. Or maybe Roger was aware of it and decided not to include it. I'm sure he'll chime in and tell us rather than me speculate and probably be wrong.

Check out the thread on Roger Burdette's (RWB on these forums) Saint-Gaudens book. Almost as valuable as the book itself ! 5-figures at least in AU or higher, 6 or more in the higher grades. And the highest-gradeds for Saints like the 1927-D's in the low-7's. I think we agreed with the gist of an article/blog over in the RWB Saint Thread that there are probably a few hundred (~500) serious Saint registry collectors....then there are maybe tens of thousands (~25,000) who are type collectors or folks who collect some Saints but aren't into getting all of them or doing registry....and then there are the investment folks who buy based on newsletters and infomercials numbering in the hundreds of thousands buying the lower-graded coins as bullion subsitutes. I think more people would collect them for bullion or numismatic reasons if they knew about them. I didn't know about Saints until I was in my 40's.

What's a hobby book ? Examples.....? I'll read any book that is of interest though the Red Whitman GUIDE books are very easy to read all-at-once or over time. I read this 600-page plus book on Saint-Gaudens coins but I can't remember the title or the guy who wrote it.

Interesting while scouring old Heritage commentaries on pricey Saint sales: Even though it was written-up in 2012, 30 years after the referenced event, this commentary appears to legitimize a so-called hoard of 40 1929 Saints found in England in 1984. My understanding is that this turned out to be an urban myth -- there was no hoard -- spread by some bigwigs (accidentally), including Walter Breen. "Bowers' estimate of 1,250 to 1,750 pieces extant also appears wildly optimistic, given the certified totals and the distant probability of many more examples remaining undiscovered. In The Coinage of Augustus Saint-Gaudens as Illustrated by the Phillip H. Morse Collection, the authors note, 'It seems highly unlikely that any sizeable quantity of an expensive coin such as the 1929 Saint could exist without being certified. Around 40 pieces were discovered in England in 1984, but we are not aware of any other sizeable holdings of this issue that have been uncovered recently.'"

It's funny, I usually see the 1924 or 1927 or even the 1908 NM as being the standard for pricing of generic commons. Never knew why the 1928 didn't get the same respect. That chart you show I like for long-term graphing of price moves....but I think that the price for the earlier years was HIGHER and the recent price LOWER...making for less of a rise from 2018/19 to the present. That chart would show a near 50% rise in price the last 2 years or so....I think it's closer to 25%, especially once gold moved from $2,000 back to $1,800. I'd be surprised if a plain MS65 generic Saint from 1924/27/28 sold for near $2,800 right now (unless it had CAC).

22% and 37% (not 27% !) relative to the price of gold bullion. Sorry, I thought that was clear when talking about gold coins and premiums. As for "official"....just a way of jazzing-up the thread, Mark. On other message boards I belong to.... to concentrate similar posts and back-and-forth on one thread instead of having to jump among 3 or 4 or 5 threads, you'd create an "official" thread...."Official 2020 Election Thread....Official 2020 NFL Playoff Thread.....Official Covid-19 Vaccine Update Thread" etc...etc...etc. As Jerry Seinfeld said to Izzy Mandelbaum, I don't know how official these rankings really are.

At FUN 2020 they had an MS67+ sell for $55,000 which I believe is the all-time high price for a 1911-D. Apparently, it's pretty common up to Superb Gem levels. David Akers said: "The 1911-D is one of the most plentiful issues in the entire Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle series. Examples are available in quantity in all Mint State grades up to and including MS65. Even MS66 coins can only be considered scarce. Superb Gems, while rare in an absolute sense, are more plentiful than those of any other pre-1920 issue in this series with the exception of the 1908 No Motto." David Akers in 2012 commentaries noted: "After World War I, double eagles no longer circulated to any extent. For most years from 1920-1933, substantial quantities were minted of every issue but largely remained in government possession as gold reserves for our national currency. They were never really intended for circulation and were subsequently melted in the mid- to late 1930s. That is why so many of the high mintage issues of the 1920s and early 1930s are rare today and typically exist with a very high ratio of uncirculated examples to circulated ones. The 1929 is the first of the justifiably respected five late date rarities of the series although it is multiples more common than the other four when the total population of known specimens is all that is considered. This is no doubt due to the significant number of specimens returned from Europe over the years; many more examples of the 1929 were found there than of the other four later dates. However, back in the 1940s, when dealers were really just starting to get a handle on the relative rarity of the various Saint-Gaudens issues (they knew mintage figures were of no use in that regard), the 1929 was thought to be much less rare than the 1931-D and 1930-S but otherwise comparable to both the 1931 and 1932. Today, estimates vary wildly as to how many 1929 double eagles exist. PCGS estimates the population at over 900 pieces and Dave Bowers states in his double eagle book that 1,250 to 1,750 exist. Those numbers seem awfully high to me and I would place the number more in the 300-400 range. One thing about which there is little difference of opinion, however, is that the 1929 remains rare in gem uncirculated 65 condition and extremely rare above that level. In particular, the 1929 is definitely much more rare in superb MS66 condition than either the 1931 or 1932 although in gem all three are rather similar. "

For some things, maybe. For continuing discussion....Q&A....back-and-forth banter....you can't beat the internet. This is especially true for more obscure series or patterns.

I'll start off with what I thought was a pretty high all-in price/cost for a pretty non-descript NGC MS65 1928 Saint in that solid-white plastic holder. It's only a 22% premium based on the winning bid (ex-bp) but with bp and other fees it was $2,447 or 37%. Premiums for commons/generics are clearly rising. Wonder if bidding activity data would confirm it at HA, GC, Ebay, etc.

I thought a thread focusing on PRICING TRENDS for gold coins -- including popular series like Saints or Liberty's or Indian Heads -- we see and/or purchase would be appropriate. Not going to censor off-tangent discussions but the primary focus intended here is pricing trends, premiums for bullion or quasi-bullion coins, etc. But we'll see where this thread takes us....I suspect not as far nor as in-depth as the thread on RWB's Saints book.

In the 1960's, the only information we would get on coins would be from calling fellow collectors....going to the LCS and chewing the ear off the owner.....going to a local coin club or coin show. The internet has some bad actors, but by and large it keeps many of us engaged. I doubt I would be a serious collector without what I have learned about numismatics and gold coins and Saints/Liberty's/etc. from the internet and more seasoned pros.

Some of those trends are inevitable. We can't simply go back to the days of the 1960's when you could buy Double Eagles for $75 at your LCS and coin shows were the only way to see rare coins pre-internet. Some of the problems cited above have their own solutions ("Every problem has its own solution, Mr. Arnold" -- The Wonder Years). We may not meet in person at clubs or shows or the LCS....but we converse alot online and show pictures of our wins and purchases.

Some of those trends are inevitable. We can't simply go back to the days of the 1960's when you could buy Double Eagles for $75 at your LCS and coin shows were the only way to see rare coins pre-internet. Some of the problems cited above have their own solutions ("Every problem has its own solution, Mr. Arnold" -- The Wonder Years). We may not meet in person at clubs or shows or the LCS....but we converse alot online and show pictures of our wins and purchases. Commercialization and monetization and focus on $$$ ? Well, yeah, things are nice when we can harken back to a Golden Age....but whether it's baseball players or movie stars being much closer to the average American in terms of wages and compensation, that ship has sailed. $35 gold isn't coming back, either. We can't complain about grade inflation and TPG inconsistencies....AND the presence of CAC !! It's one or the other...if you worry about grade inflation or erratic grading, CAC is your best friend. I don't know if there are simply more flippers in our hobby. There are SOME -- and you see them on Ebay for sure -- but while their % has increased, I think the total number of serious collectors has been enhanced by the internet, online, HA, GC, and even Ebay (to an extent). I don't know if "shows being expensive" you mean for dealers or collectors. I find the local shows worth the time and effort...my one big show I attended (FUN 2020) was a blast as I met some online friends and had a great time. Probably cost me $750 - $1,000 before buying anything, but no complaints. Some of the complaints culled from numerous postings have merit. Some of them have SOME merit. Some of them are just personal likes or dislikes and are irrelevant, IMO. The bottom line is that if the dealer community and the online sellers/auction houses reinvest in extolling the fun and enjoyment of coins, I think the hobby can grow nicely going forward. Having trips to schools and doing other educational stuff wouldn't hurt.

Roger, you never got back on that Citizen's Committee you were forced to leave a while back, right ?

Gold Notes: Some interesting gold tidbits from the book.... After the 1929 Stock Market Crash and onset of The Depression, non-U.S. banks would not distribute gold coin. Only American and South African banks did so. Not a single Double Eagle from 1930-33 was released to a FRB for ordinary circulation. All the surviving coins are from the Treasuer's distribution of coins to collectors, Mint payouts for deposits, individuals going to the Cashier, etc. No gold coins of any denomination were struck from 1917-19 during WW I.

Agreed.....as I understand it's not only pixel resolution -- like 1920x1080 HD -- but also things like bits or stuff like that. I've noticed that some 1920x1080's I can blow up more without getting pixelated than other pictures which also measure 1920x1080. Might have something to do with JPEG vs. PNG vs. GIF....and "raw" is always the largest file size, whatever raw is.

The Rooster looks like AU-58....MAYBE MS62.

I'm sure my astronomy club will have some lead-ins to the rendevous.

What do those 2 things mean for the numismatically ignorant ?

I thought I typed this but maybe not: if you have a key thread or pages of interest, download and save them on your own PC. You never know if a web glitch deletes an entire thread or a few key pages. Cut-and-paste into Word...or save as a PDF. Every 5 pages on the Roger Burdette Saints Book thread I save the comments. That thread is invaluable to me and God Forbid I go on vacation or don't come here for a while and a fight breaks out and a Moderator deletes the entire thread or locks it up. Or a web attack or whatever affects the entire thread or parts of it. If a thread is irreplaceable, save the parts you really want preserved. Don't assume it will be in cyberspace forever.

I know nothing of that, I believe that since that thread is only 6 pages that there can't be 50+ deleted messages. I would venture there are that many in total, give-or-take. Maybe the same error glitch or a variant of it that I saw late last night.

Median P/E's are much lower than the S&P 500 or R2000 average because of the influence of the mega-caps (which themselves are much more reasonable than their counterparts in 2000).

Yeah, they came back.....some sort of web glitch last last night where some black text error message came up.