GoldFinger1969

On 3/4/2024 at 7:12 PM, RWB said:

No. There are no proofs except as I stated. That is what the evidence says and any other conclusion is a lie. (Unless ALL are called "proofs.")

The regular MCMVII HR's were NOT annealed like the UHR's, right Roger ?

That and the special dies/polishing distinguished the UHR patterns as proofs.

I'm surprised that no MCMVII HR's haven't gotten a "PL" designation.  Happy it didn't happen, don't get me wrong...just surprised.

On 3/4/2024 at 4:06 PM, RWB said:

There's no debate. The facts are clear and the TPG who originally made the error has merely compounded that as a way of not paying it's guarantee to people who bought as "proof" when there were none. The first dies and collar used for the initial 500 pieces remained in use during the full duration of circulation coinage. One new pair and collar were added in November so production could be increased. Also, coins w/o a fin were made from the same dies/collars - it was merely a mechanical change in planchet upsetting.

I agree...but you DID give equal time to the other side in your book, Roger...that's what I meant by debate.

BTW, I commend you for including that section even though it was clear from the earlie pages in the book that you thought there weren't any MCMVII HR "proofs."

On 3/5/2024 at 2:16 PM, Zebo said:

Information may surface between editions, but is it really worth publishing a new edition for the small amount of new information? If the new information was significant - maybe, but condition rarities - no thanks. 

I think Guide Books can be updated even with only new price information....but for the DE book, I think enough has happened that makes a 2nd Edition even more worthwhile.  The stories that are new....the additional information on hoards and shipwrecks...the gold price...the certification totals, esp. in the higher grades.  I think this is worthy of a new edition (and again, this is the only book that covers ALL DEs year-by-year).

I believe it is the only Whitman Official Red Book that hasn't gotten a 2nd edition ? 

On 3/5/2024 at 7:13 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Isn't most of that covered and updated yearly in the Official Red Book? I think that another edition would only be justified if there were major additions or amendments that needed to happen, the yearly price, data, and small blurbs can be covered by the Official Red Book. Same goes for the 100 greatest U.S. coins, if you're barely going to change the list why bother? 

If you mean the Annual Official Red Book of all coins....it just has some sketchy price estimates for a few grades for all the coins, including the DEs.  There is maybe 1/2 page or so talking about the coin series covering the entire mintage over many years -- basically, nothing. 

The Whitman Red Book on Double Eagles has about 1/2 page on every DE by mint/year....Liberty Head or Saint-Gaudens.....so tons more information.  And the pricing for commons for all those years was based on the gold price at the time of publication which was about $400...doing it NOW for $2,000 would be light-years better even if they don't do a complex and detailed price matrix or analysis like Roger did for his book.

One Interesting Thing: In the bio for Bowers page, it says that an expanded version of the book with much more detailed historical and numismatic information (sans prices) will be available to professionals, researchers, numismatists, etc.  I don't know if anything ever came of that but it sounds like all the stuff Bowers and Whitman cut out but which I think would have been -- and might still be -- of interest to Double Eagle collectors.

On 3/3/2024 at 8:02 AM, zadok said:

...New York mint...who knew?....

I think it was an assay office, right ?

On 3/4/2024 at 2:24 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I was just reading Garrett's latest NGC article and in it he writes about putting together a 6th edition of the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins book to be released in the fall and I can't help but wonder is there really a demand for a sixth edition?  Is there another book that would have wide collector appeal that should be published instead of this? These are just a few questions that popped in my head while reading the article and was curious what others thought.   Link to the article. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/12698/ 

Good thoughts and questions, Mike. 

I don't have the book so I have to assume there's enough publishing demand that merits a 6th Edition.  The advantage of a book like this is it has the favorite coins of lots of different collectors so you increase the demand from collectors of Eagles, Double Eagles, Morgans, Barbers, Lincolns, etc.

When were the 4th and 5th editions published ?

On 3/4/2024 at 2:24 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Is there another book that would have wide collector appeal that should be published instead of this?

I'm biased, but I really want to see the Whitman Red Book on Double Eagles get a 2nd Edition -- the first was way back in 2004.  This book has information year-by-year on both the Liberty Head DE and Saint-Gaudens DE series.  I don't know of another good Liberty Head book (the other Liberty Head DE book by Bowers isn't really an annual review of that year's coins but an annual financial/economic/cultural review).  So much has happened in 20 years that the commentary sections and the data/price/certification totals could really use an update.

Roger's magnus opus on Saints is spectacular, but at 600+ pages it's alot for a beginner gold or Saints collector to commit too, unfortunately.  We die-hards love the book but not sure the casual collector will invest the time in reading it.  Unfortunately ! 

And again, it's only on Saints not Liberty Heads.

I also have a new initiation report on the gold miners and indirectly gold the metal by Jefferies.  If anybody wants to see it, since I can't post it here, then PM me your email and I'll shoot it over. 

New All-Time Closing High Today:   Looks like we will close decisively above $2,100/ounce.    Dragged up by BitCoin, for sure.

I continue to think we are headed for $3,000 in a few years.  If you have a budget for gold coins, grab some now unless you want to do most/all of your buying ALOT higher ! 

On 3/4/2024 at 12:43 PM, RWB said:

There are no proofs, except for the patterns.

I think he was joking given the debate concerning "proof" MCMVII HR's. 

On 3/4/2024 at 10:19 AM, RWB said:

The full story is in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 and a condensed version in the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book.

Yup, I am going back to re-read it today.  

Did you just find the letter or have you known about it for some time ?

If the Treasurer (Secretary of the Treasury ?) had a bag of these "defective" coins do we know if he had them destroyed or, after further reflection, decided the coins could be given out without too much "humiliation" ? 

On 3/3/2024 at 11:40 PM, Sandon said:

   Apparently, the Director was unsuccessful in preventing release of the "finned" coins, as I understand that the pieces with "wire rims" constitute the majority of the 1907 high relief double eagles in existence today. 

Yeah, was he saying re-strike them (and destroy these) or just do without them ?  If he had gotten his way, we'd have lost 2/3rds of the MCMVII HR's.

The difference with the Flat Rim is so miniscule to non-professionals that I'm surprised he used the phrase "humiliated."

RARE COIN TV:  Today I saw Roger's book in another infomercial, but Rick Tomaska wasn't the guy making the pitch.  It was a substitute.  Once again, the book was on a picture frame mount off to the side.

The "coins" were commemoratives from the Augustus Saint-Gaudens National Park Foundation.  They were selling the 1-ounce Winged Liberty Ultra High Relief in gold for $5,495 which is a HUGE premium to the spot bullion price.  I don't believe previous versions were retailing for that much of a premium.  They were also selling a Winged Liberty 5-ounce Silver Ultra High Relief for $995.

I don't like the premiums being charged but they were actually my least distasteful part of the 25-27 minutes.  References were made to the other 2 Ultra High Reliefs struck, the 1907 MCMVII UHR (with a Heritage snapshot showing one going for $4.3 MM) and the 2009 UHR.  Mintages of each -- 21 vs. 114,000 -- were emphasized and how THIS coin was in between those two, benefitting future appreciation.  For the gold coin, it's mintage of 299 and for the 5-ounce silver it is 999.

I like these coins but the premiums have to come down on both.  They are also issuing them every year or every other year, the novelty is going to wear off.

Rick's infomercials do a good job telling the history of the coins or commemoratives, and I applaud him for that.  I just wish the coins were cheaper -- partly out of his control, I know.  I guess if someone buys one and it stimulates their interest in the richness of this hobby, it's not a bad deal -- heck, I wish I had been exposed to double eagles much earlier as I undoubtedly would have cleaned up at much lower prices -- so we'll just have to see.

I'll see if these coins show up on HA, GC, Ebay, etc. 

On 3/2/2024 at 7:11 AM, Errorists said:

Can a Die Crack on a coin be considered as part of the device of a coin since it is raised above the field?

Errorist, why did you ask ?

FYI, as I recall, the lira exchange rate to the dollar was about 600 to 700 in the 1960's and 1970's.  So this was a small denomination coin.

On 2/26/2024 at 9:32 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

My 2013 Red Book is the only copy I've ever seen, so I don't know what other year versions state regarding the SS Central America. I'd be curious to know what other members find in their Red Books for years other than 2013, relating to this upside-down flag assertion. Coming across the assertion was serendipity for me, to say the least.  I had no idea it was stated in the Red Book. The other ships that leant help may have written in their logs mention of the upside-down flag. Ordered Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea today; hard cover, used, very good condition. (Amazon)

My Whitman Double Eagle Red Book (not the Annual Red Book about all coins) has 5 full pages on the SSCA.  There's only 1 edition of this book (2004) but there is a bit more information that has come out on the total salvaged and a few other items, if they ever do a 2nd edition. 

My Annual Red Book is the 67th Edition, (c) 2013 like yours.  1 1/2 pages on shipwrecks and a bit under 1/2 page on the SSCA.  There's an error on the SS Republic where they say that 1,400 DEs were found dated 1838-1858.  DEs weren't struck until 1850 (excluding the sole 1859).

Congrats on finding the bill !!   I am curious as to where you "found" it, if you would let us know.

Here's the grading definitions used by PMG, the leading currency grader.  I woul say your bill is either in the Very Good or Very Fine buckets....probably VG-10 or VF-12 as the bill has tears and gaps along the sides.  It is also very worn.  Not sure if it is any special print which would add to the value. 

https://www.pmgnotes.com/paper-money-grading/grading-scale/

Still, I bet it has a FMV of $100 or a bit more.

Great article, I commented in another thread. 

On 2/28/2024 at 2:32 PM, zadok said:

...all u say is viable in the discussion, my main query is whether the owner of lets say a set of saints is representative of the hobby or is he an outlier n skews the metrics...im sure there r many true collectors that only collect one area or denomination of the hobby, large cent collectors come to mind, im just not convinced that most of the saint registry set owners r real collectors or just owners, its not important to the hobby overall just an inquiry...saint collecting is definitely diff than collecting say short foreign bullion sets where the entire set can be assembled in a matter of days n usually in mint state due to the non-circulating of the coins involved, again not important to the overall hobby...my experience is that true collectors collect more than just one area of any hobby....

You probably have some MCMVII HR and/or Saint and/or gold or silver HOLDERS....who never add to their holdings....never look at them....don't know what a slab is (unless they inherited one)....and are never on forums like this.   I agree.  We won't see or hear about their coins until they die and their estate/kids/beneficiaries liquidate the holdings. 

You've said -- and Kurt backs it up with his PA excursions -- that lots of people purchased raw coins and/or inherited them and they are sitting in safes, garages, or SDBs.  Again, I agree.

It might only be 5-20% of the current population grades for some coins...but that is ALOT of coins for those coins/grades that have seen no or little movement in the population census in years/decades.

I agree:  true collectors are ACTIVE and are involved in more than 1 coin type.  But lots of people are just coin or bullion HOLDERS -- not collecting, not buying, not selling, not active -- especially for older collectors and/or their estate inheritors.

Was a Chicago mint ever considered, Roger ?  Denver's population in 1906 couldn't have been that large.

On 2/27/2024 at 3:47 PM, zadok said:

...not totally relevant to ur comment but came into my mind while reading it...knowing ur obsession  with saints n my thinking that saints r not coins that r aggressively collected, however the number of registry sets do not support my premise...

The big factor with Saints is you are talking about a big 1 ounce coin....so at current market values, you are talking about a floor of about $2,000 to get into the game.  And obviously numismatic-quality coins are mostly in the $2,500 - $4,000 range depending on the rarity and grade.  That explains why many gold afficionados will collect Quarter or Half Eagles instead....MUCH less expensive, right ? 

If you want to get in the game for ASEs, you can buy plenty of stuff for < $100.00.  Not so with Saints or modern AGEs ! 

I can't recall where I read it (Doug Winter's blog ?)...I know I posted it before....but I read where one guestimate was the following:

• About 500 serious registry collectors of Saints.
• About 25,000 serious Type and partial collectors of Saints (I'm in this group ).
• Several hundred thousand buyers for investment purposes only (I used to have clients in this group).  

On 2/27/2024 at 3:47 PM, zadok said:

one thing u mite want to consider, r the owners of those sets really numismatical collectors? do they have other collections of coins or r they "one trick ponies" like another member here on the forum that collects only 14 coins?...r they collectors that have big bucks n just want to dabble in the coin collecting world n saints seem to fit what they think a coin collection should look like?...would those same collectors collect 3 cent silver pcs?...i have a couple of friends that collect rare cars n rare bourbons n scotchs n they collect only mexican gold 50 pesos just because they like the size of the coins n like to call themselves coin collectors...just a thought that crossed my mind n i know u like to use the term "serious collectors"...r these registry set saint collectors "serious collectors" or "one trick pony" collectors?...i doubt we will ever know but the question is interesting to me....

It IS an interesting question, Zad...and you ARE right.  There is no 1-size-fits-all and yes, while the coin type(s) and quantity are limited, I would say your friend who collects the Mexican Gold 50 Pesos IS a collector.  If someone has 5 or 14 or 30 coins but is not ACTIVELY buying/selling/adding to their stash -- numismatic or bullion -- I guess it's a matter of semantics, right ?

I am sure there are lots of people who own 1 or 2 gold coins, maybe a Saint, and haven't bought a coin in years or decades, if at all.  Most likely inheritances.  Certainly, a significant percentage of the MCMVII High Relief coins were originally bought by people who were not serious coin collectors....who knew only it was a "special" coin.....and maybe because it was a coin created by the famous sculptor ASG whose art work they already admired.  I'm not a wine collector or big drinker, but I couldn't resist buying a case of wine when my favorite Met growing up, Tom Seaver, released his vintage wines some 15 years ago. 

Anyway, that MCMVII HR has since most likely been handed down 1 or 2 times.  Is the successor owner a coin collector ?  Probably not....like a person who inherits some family jewelry, they probably keep it for sentimental reasons ("Grandpa owned it" or "my mother gave it to me").  Without these strong hands holders of this coin -- and maybe some others -- the price would probably be much lower. 

We have tons of posts here and elsewhere where folks and dealers say that the MCMVII HR is annually chosen as an "overvalued" coin that trades at much higher prices than it should based on (available) supply...without accounting for the demand for a rare, high relief coin that is unique and has a fantastic story attached to it.  I don't share that view....I think coins reflect (available) supply and demand.  But that "available" supply could be much lower for the MCMVII HR -- and other coins -- and thus accounts for a higher price than what some of you think it should be (I'd be interested in hearing what some of you think an MCMVII HR AU-58, which goes for about $12,000...should cost if supply and demand were more "normal").

On 2/28/2024 at 6:45 AM, Zebo said:

1858 Pikes Peak Gold Rush occurred and the Carson City Mint closed in 1893. 

Yeah, and Cripple Creek and other Colorado gold finds also hit...but by 1906 when the Denver Mint opened, they all had to be on their last legs, no ?

SanFran Mint opened a few years after California gold strikes....the Denver Mint opened a much longer period of time after Cripple opened.

However.....those mines STILL produce gold today, so maybe it was still pretty active in the early-1900's.

What was the reason for the Denver Mint ?  The Comstock and Cripple Creek finds were winding down or done (nearest supplies)....San Fran's mint was there because it was built shortly after the California gold finds.

Why was a 3rd mint needed...and why Denver ?  Small denomination coins ?

And where did those coins go once turned into bars ?  Same place as Miss Galore and her acrobatic circus.....Fort Knox, Kentucky ! 

Everything about Fort Knox (but nothing about the electrical system that electrocuted poor Oddjob  ) from the illustrious RWB  :

https://coinweek.com/the-national-gold-bullion-depository-at-fort-henry-knox/

Interesting comments on Saint pricing from John Albanese. 

It's from late-2022 but I think his Big Picture on Saints is that prices/premiums have/had fallen to the point where you don't need the CAC or CACG endorsement to get VALUE for your purchase if you do your DD:

JA:  "...I’ve had similar conversations about Saint-Gaudens and how strict we are with MS65 here. But I have to tell you, the MS65 Saint-Gaudens prices have come down so low in price for non-CAC coins that I may disagree with the grade, but I don’t disagree with the value. If that’s their standard, that’s their standard. That’s okay.

Interviewer: It’s kind of difficult to get one of those in MS65 these days where Liberty doesn’t look like she lost a knife fight.

JA:  "Yeah. I remember, I bought some. I bought a nice little grouping of them that were not stickered-nice. They’re relatively nice. They weren’t stickered coins and at the time, 64s were $1,950 and 65s were $2,020. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the prices on the screen. At $2,020, I felt very comfortable buying. I would buy a hundred, I bought half a dozen, but I would buy a hundred at that price, because forget the grade, forget everything else, but the fact with gold at $1,650, looking at these coins, I would pay $2,020. Even if they were out of the holder, I’d pay $2,020. So, I didn’t feel as though anything was askew. Again, not my standard, because to me, MS65 means “Gem”...."

So basically he's comfortable with 65's trading at a 20-25% premium to gold.