GoldFinger1969

In case you are interested, the 1880-S was one of the coins heavily marketed during the Coin Bubble of 1989.  I was just doing some research on that period.

The 1880-S Morgan in MS-65 condition hit a peak of $550 in May 1989.....fell to $75 a few years later.....and today is about $175 (without CAC and PL designations).

On 12/25/2022 at 8:42 AM, World Colonial said:

If Garrett gets his wish, the traditional collector is going to get priced out of many coins they previously could afford. 

Maybe, but it can't be worse than those in the early-1970's who saw gold quadruple before they were legally allowed to buy it....then saw it quadruple again in 5+ years.

Folks who for decades knew it was worth $35/oz. suddenly had to pay $150 - $750 an ounce, with the metal pretty much averaging about $350 for the next 20 years.

WC, I totally disagree.  And I think tens of millions of Americans who have diversified portfolios with stocks, bonds, and cash would disagree also.

This isn't investors being marketed to.  The small investor has lots of power and controls trillions.  Outfits like Vanguard practically work for free to serve them. 

On 1/13/2024 at 10:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

In 1962 US Treasury Department policy toward gold ownership was little changed since 1933. Gold for jewelry was legal. Gold coins dated 1932 and older could be legally held, but ONLY if physically in the US and as collectibles, not investments. All gold imports were forbidden, except by special license which was rarely granted. So, a US $20 St. Gaudens gold piece was available in Switzerland for US $50, but, due to a shortage of supply in the US, it was worth $60 plus. Hmmm…US gold coins minted prior to 1933 were legal if already here? You couldn’t legally bring them in. But, if you were able to get them here, there was a nice profit. Interesting. Sounds like an invitation to the bootlegger. My company, Camino Coin, was founded in 1959. Although our primary business was numismatics, we soon were deeply involved in buying and selling precious metals. In Europe, these services were provided by banks. US government policy was harsh, and the gold coin bootleggers reign existed through the early 1960s. The process was simple: the bootlegger purchased the US gold coins in Europe where most of them had resided since 1933, and had them shipped to Canada. So far, everything was legal. Getting the gold safely across the border was the problem. Treasury Department enforcement against the smugglers was sporadic. Most of the gold coins arrived safely, but occasionally the feds would “send a message to the coin community” by making midnight raids and confiscating gold as if they were dealing with dangerous drugs. In one instance, I saw the process close up. A smuggler carried gold coins from Canada to the state of Washington, packaged them, and mailed the parcel from a Seattle post office to a US dealer. (This fellow was selling them to me.) When the dealer’s sister sought to pick them up at her California post office, the Secret Service confiscated the coins. The dealer, desperate to recover his merchandise, argued that since the coins were mailed from Seattle, they were physically in the US, thereby not subject to confiscation. The government held that these coins were never “here,” but rather in transit from Canada, hence, contraband. The case finally went to a US Circuit Court and the government prevailed.  Near the end of JFK’s presidency, the Treasury Department modified its restrictions on gold coins minted 1932 and earlier. US and foreign coinage could now be legally imported by Americans. This led to an avalanche of European gold coins like the British Sovereign, the French and Swiss 20 Franc, and all the American gold coins coming into the US.   In 1973, with the government in disarray, and a president near impeachment, a small but energetic movement to eliminate all remaining restrictions on gold ownership won a shocking victory and for the first time in over 40 years, Americans could freely own and trade gold without restriction.  The late, great coin dealer and conference entrepreneur James U. Blanchard III was the main force behind the struggle. For the first time since 1932 gold coins, bars, and gold certificates could be freely imported. Items that, prior to January 1, 1974, were almost as dangerous to handle as heroin were part of everyday commerce. But it took a while for a dealer to hold a Krugerrand or a Credit Suisse gold kilo bar in his hand without looking over his shoulder to see if a Secret Service agent was lurking in the shadows."

Re-reading this section, and knowing that noted PITA Leland Howard (the guy at the center of the 1933 Double Eagle 20 years earlier) was the key guy in the 1960's determining who could and could not get an Import License for gold coins (generally NOT !!  )......I wonder how guys like Paul Wittlin and Q. David Bowers, etc....were able to bring in hundreds (thousands ?) of gold coins, including Saints, year-after-year ?

BTW, Howard was director of the Treasury's Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations since its inception in 1961 through his 1967 retirement.

On 5/17/2024 at 9:34 PM, World Colonial said:

I did say that, but I think I got the coin wrong or might have.  I'm not sure the article identified which one.  It might have been a Liberty Seated quarter.

"....One panelist, coin dealer and longtime consumer advocate Scott Travers, lamented the fact that a classic high-population quarter that he owned had lost significant value (from $34,000 to $6,000 USD) in recent years."

Definitely a quarter, but not sure what type.

Jordan cards come back to Earth:

https://www.altaninsights.com/blog-posts/unpacking-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-1986-fleer-michael-jordan-rookie-card

On 5/17/2024 at 9:38 PM, World Colonial said:

Here we go again, There is no difference between speculation and "investment" in the financial markets.  It's marketing BS.

No, investments use time and fundamentals to work in one's favor.  Compounding interest or dividends....cash flows....valuations.

Speculations (i.e., options especially short-dated ones) are clearly different than quality equities or bonds.  You're involved in a guessing game because most options expire worthless.  Most stocks do NOT expire with negative returns. 

Interesting how NFTs and Sports Cards (aside from the Mickey Mantle Rookie Card) took a shellacking in the last 2+ years. 

WC, you mentioned Scott Travers a while back....apparantly he paid $34,000 for a Barber Quarter that is down to $6,000. 

Is there a special Barber coin worth that much, unique condition/mintmark/year or something ?  I'm not familiar with the series.

$2,417...up $32...new ATH.  

$3,000 by 2030 maybe sooner.  Stop waiting for a crash back to $1,800. 

On 5/15/2024 at 10:51 PM, RWB said:

The change in gold price to $35/oz stimulated an even greater surge in mining, including mines that were only marginal before 1934. The present open market price has had a similar effect although it is spread over a decade or more.

Biggest problem is that the low-hanging fruit has been plucked and there's been no great technological improvement in mining efficiency as there has been with oil production and fracking.

Throw in decades of lousy M&A and CAPX projects and shareholder destruction and it's no wonder gold production has stalled (peaked ?).  Let's see if a stustained price close to $2,400 (or more) boosts production.  Effects are usually HIGHLY lagged.

While we had our own Gold Rush in 1848 in California, worldwide gold production really surged in the late-1800's:  

"Beginning in 1887 there was a steady increase in the world's annual output of the yellow metal, and since I897 the production has been at a rate which would have caused dismay had it been predicted ten years before. In I890, according to statistics compiled by the director of the mint, the world's supply of gold available for monetary use was less than $4,000,000,000. In 1907 it exceeded $7,000,000,000. At the same time, based upon this gold, there was a gigantic expansion of banking credit. In the United States, bank deposits (including those of savings banks) increased between I890 and I907 from $6,000,000,000 to $19,000,000,000, and practically all of this expansion took place after I897. According to computations made by the comptroller of the currency the item of individual deposits in national and state banks increased from $7,000,000,000 in 1900 to $13,000,000,000 in 1907."

On 5/15/2024 at 12:33 PM, zadok said:

...interesting, but possibly u have the full-timers n part-timers confused...

Yup....for sure, PT'ers can buy or look every few months or even every year or so...to those active every few weeks.

Wide variance, you are right.  

On 4/13/2024 at 7:41 PM, VKurtB said:

Being as familiar as I am with the “older” pre-Obama Swiss banking secrecy situation (both my father and his brother, my uncle, had Swiss numbered accounts - all re-onshored during the Obama administration), I believe that there will be further drip-drip-drip “new” hoards or mini-hoards coming out of Switzerland. Only Americans were affected by the gold prohibition. The Swiss banks sold U.S. gold to clients worldwide. What condition? Well, that’s the question, ain’t it? 

Kurt, what happened to the Swiss banking laws during Obama ?  Less secrecy ?

I have to check the Swiss gold accumulation relative to France/U.S. from the 1920's-1930's.  That would indicate the presence of U.S. coins going to Switzerland.  I see plenty of NY Times articles on the French banks, but haven't been able to find "hoard" articles for the Swiss....so far. 

On 5/15/2024 at 9:56 AM, zadok said:

...keep on telling urself that, while ur designing book covers...hint: sloppy sells, verbose n tedious not so much....

Roger's 650-page book on Saints is outstanding.  And his other books on other coins have gotten good reviews.

I think there's a market for information in our hobby.  Just not that much among the part-timers.

2009 UHR on Saturday at 5:30 PM and 6 PM on Bloomberg TV.

On 5/14/2024 at 2:42 PM, VKurtB said:

OF COURSE they are. SOMEBODY has to pay for that television time, and IT IS THE COIN BUYER, nobody else. That is the flaw in ALL television coin shows. Air time is expensive; it adds to the seller’s overhead, and YOU PAY FOR IT!

If somebody just buys 1 or even passes and just learns from the show, I think it's OK.  I just hope nobody is buying their next 5 years's worth of gold at a 30% premium.

On 4/7/2024 at 10:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wells Fargo Hoard, Initial Selling Prices:  Found an old article that mentioned that the MS-65's sold for about $1,200....the 66's for $3,000 and the 67's for $10,000. 

I'm trying to figure out if the MS-67's sold for $10K because of Wells Fargo Hoard hype...or if the market for 67's was that high in general back then.  I think they just overpriced the 67's relative to the 66's.

Can anyone recall what common 67's -- 1908 NM, 1924's, etc. -- sold for back then ?

1894-S Liberty Head Double Eagle infomercial this Friday morning @ 12:30 AM (Thurs Night/Friday Morning) on Blooomberg TV.

I think there's another one for another common LH DE on Saturday.  Will report back if anybody is interested.

The story-telling IMO is very good in these segments....you DO learn alot.  I just dislike the high prices charged, even accepting they have to make a profit, I just think they're a bit too high.

On 5/13/2024 at 8:25 AM, zadok said:

...why do u think any of those "blanks" r important?...how would any of that information add anything to the individual collector who mite want to buy or not buy one of those coins?...its like wanting to know what ur next door neighbor is doing about anything....

I think the narratives and stories and history behind our coins is part of the allure.  I'm interested in history, so maybe it's just me.

Isn't that why so many non-coin collectors ended up buying an SSCA coin ?  For the history...the story ?  

Maybe if I had more $$$ to be buying I'd be spending less time reading. 

On 5/11/2024 at 11:43 AM, RWB said:

The proposed Trade dollar book and reference was intended as a long term consolidated repository. The proportion of coin collectors specializing in this design is, as noted above, very small. This means there is no profit potential in the information - except for buying/selling coins.

I see more people talking about/mentioning Trade Dollars here and ATS than talking about Saints. 

On 5/11/2024 at 7:48 AM, World Colonial said:

I just had someone on the PCGS Message Boards PM me about where I've bought my coins.  It's public knowledge but they can make the same effort to find it I did.  Why I would I tell anyone everything I know about my collecting interest so they can use it to buy the coins first?  With Trade dollars, yes, I'd guess it's because they want to cherry pick the rarer varieties, maybe in multiple.  I don't think a die variety reference makes much difference measured by the potential impact of increasing the collector base.  I doubt there are actually that many who are interested in buying 100-150 varieties due to a lack of interest, potential cost, and availability.  It's not a series with a particularly high preference.  Noticeably higher as a type versus a series, according to the Heritage data.

If you have a CONFIDENTIAL source and are actively buying hard-to-get coins, I get the secrecy angle.

But does Ron Gillio REALLY need to maintain secrecy about the exact origins of the 1908 No Motto Saint Hoard ?  It's been 28 years since then, I think the market had adjusted price-wise.   Ditto for any secrets regarding the SSCA.

That's my point.  I certainly don't expect folks to give out specific real-time sources of information if they are into competitive registry sets or trying to obtain a hard-to-get coin.  I'm just talking about filling in the blanks on stuff we are trying to ascertain for the historical record.

On 5/10/2024 at 5:56 PM, VKurtB said:

He had assembled a COMPLETE SET of 4 dollar gold Stellas during his lifetime and had sold it, at magnificent profit. I never knew until after he had died. He was the mentor who taught me how to exhibit and how to judge exhibits. 

You never discussed coin collecting or what HE collected even though he taught you about exhibitions and judging exhibitions ? 

I would think that attendance and spending should be UP because of the post-Covid effect we have seen elsewhere (such as in my other hobby, astronomy).   Some of you have no idea what has happened with attendance at star parties for example -- it's nuts !! 

Hopefully, we see a slower gradual boost to our little niche. 

On 4/2/2021 at 4:01 PM, Bignubnumismatics said:

I am nearing the end of my high school days and have to start thinking about future careers. I am extremely passionate about numismatics, and I would love for my great hobby to be my career. I have been to the Summer Seminar (several times had it not been for this virus) and am in the middle of completing the ANA's Numismatic Diploma Program. Are there any tips or other actions I should take to make the dream become a reality? 

Focus on grading.....that's the key....you do that and are proficient, you'll get a job easy with any dealer or one of the TPGs.

Charmy, did you and other dealers see more traffic/volume compared to previous CSNS shows (or recent shows like FUN/Long Beach)....or did you see more spending from similar traffic as before ?  

My astronomy club had our annual space expo a few weeks ago...attendance down (because of the Total Solar Eclipse) and some vendors were wary....but many had their best weekend in years as even reduced sales volumes were offset by much larger purchases.  One vendor told me she did more than the previous 2 shows combined and was wondering on set-up Friday if she should have even come this year !

On 5/9/2024 at 10:34 PM, mlovmo said:

I did.  ANA 2022.

Nice...what was the topic ?