GoldFinger1969

FWIW, I never saw so many coins in my Watchlist on GC end with no bids. Sellers are simply asking too much money. These coins are mostly MS-64's and 65's in commons, sometimes with CAC, but sellers are asking for about 30% over spot which when you add in the fees takes it to 40-50%. Buyers are on strike. I'll see what pure premiums (MS-63 and below) for commons went for, assuming they got sold. I figure GC is more likely to see such coins offered than HA which tends to focus on higher-end/numismatic coins rather than quasi-bullions (though there is an overlap in those definitions, for sure).

I wonder how many bullion-types are sold on HA and GC. I never really bothered to look since they are pretty much considered worth the price of gold. You'd think the price wouldn't go much higher than the spot price since you can get their equivalent at any LCS or local coin show. The only premium embedded is the value of the holder...the grade (you know it's not a counterfeit)...and maybe the particular coin's appearance. Otherwise, there should be lots of interchangeable coins which in theory should keep the price locked to a low level above spot gold.

He is a wonderful contributor here at these forums and although I have never met him all here who have insist he is a first-class genteleman. Prayers for David, I hope he focuses on his health and then is able to resume his normal activities and wonderful posts here at NGC Forums.

I know nothing of Bhutan coins, in fact I never even heard of Bhutan except maybe in passing over the decades where it didn't stick. But I can tell you that for modern coins, it's not unusual in the more popular series -- still relatively illiquid (i.e., 5 ounce silvers) to see a 50-100% jump from PF69 to PF70. Sometimes sellers will ask (not sure they get) a 100-200% bump from the 69 level. I would think that the jump from 63 to 70 could be larger, even for a very rare unique coin. It really depends on how many unique buyers there are for a unique coin. It only takes 2 bidders to drive up the price to skyhigh levels.

People here have integrity, nobody is going to jump someone even if it's a coin that they might have interest. Unless they were already bidding. At least I wouldn't.

Let me clarify/be more specific: when I say sell at spot, I'm talking give or take 5%. At least that's what I last saw at my LCS and the shows I attended in 2019-20. I got a nice MS-63 1915-S @ FUN 2020 for the actual price of spot, maybe $20 higher...throw in the weight differential, and that's what ? 4% over spot or so I guess. Maybe because of Covid "premiums" are higher but shouldn't be 40-50%. Maybe 10%, tops. That's a fair price for illiquidity. I do believe now and pre-Covid that buying through the auction houses (HA or even GC but not sure about Ebay) was going to result in a higher price. You pay for the convenience of buying from your desk with clicks...even for random coins that are highly available, I guess.

On the other hand....gold is down about 10% YTD and BitCoin is still down almost 60%. Stocks are down about 20-25%...and even "safe" bond investments have had their worst year in a century down 16% by one measure. Gold really has been a safe haven (besides cash) in 2022, hard as it may seem. The historic rise in rates has prevented gold from rising in regards to inflation.

Got it, thanks Eagle. Surprised PCGS did that -- they must have thought that gold was going to continue to rise because inflation was going to increase. That DID happen -- but gold got slammed by the rise in interes rates (it's still one of the best-performing asset classes YTD besides cash). It's unusual that one TPG would jump the gun on prices and the other didn't. Kudos to NGC for reading the market correctly. That's unreal. Common dates MS-62's should sell right at spot bullion, which is still a slight premium when you account for the 3% differential in weight with a Saint. That's why I say that the LATEST PRICES on both TPG websites must be used with EXTREME caution. The price charts over time are very useful but for prices in the most recent months you really have to check auction prices. Still, I can't recall prices being that off as with PCGS's quotes for what should be a pretty easy-to-track coin price which is basically spot bullion.

I must say that crypto has held up so far with the 2-year and 10-year Treasury spiking the last few weeks. Let's see if it holds.

Who or what is the "CrazyHounddog" collection ?

I missed the ruble difference.

Has this been confirmed by others you've talked to ? Dealers confirming it ? I guess the difference is that when the price of gold fell and bullion and numismatic coin prices needed to be adjusted downward....those with NGC coins lowered while those with PCGS coins did not....is that correct ?

Why would they do that ? I believe lots of TrueViews were taken down from many collectors, many non-famous. What gives ?

I guess people understand "wire" not "fin" in relation to "flat."

I'm not sure they include it anymore...ruins the glossy pics.

I think mine is about 0.2 oz of gold. Gold was about $1,600 when I got it at FUN and I believe I paid $500 or so.

Gold getting hit as the 2-year Treasury and 10-year Treasury soar. Tough to hold precious metals when you can get 4.5% in a risk-free asset for 2 years.

Here's my MS-65 coin from 1902:

It's a bit OT, but since we are talking about investments in gold/Saints and alternatives, here's what has happened to baseball cards: https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/news/sports-card-market-values-national-sports-collectors-convention

(1) You are dealing with a HIGHLY illiquid investment when talking coins. People are more likely to splurge on art. (2) Returns, as we have documented on these threads multiple times, RARELY exceed mid-to-high single digits, which is nothing compared to the total returns from real estate (plus the tax benefits).

Congrats...you bought these because you like 'em, right ? Not for appreciation or gifting ?

(1) For a sealed coin, how much "gas" can enter the coin holder compared to nearby furniture that might be near one's coin collection ? I think we are talking such minute amounts that it is microscopic and can't really harm (sealed) coins. (2) Maybe this is for raw, unsealed coins/stamps/papers where something can react to "gas" much easier than a metal ?

Some of our veteran collectors here might know otherwise, but I am unaware of foreigners showing ANY interest in ANY U.S. coins, including Saints. Now, they might be buying GOLD and maybe a few people here and there bought U.S. bars, modern bullion coins, or some pre-1933 U.S. gold. But I see no major trend, no. Real estate -- residential or commercial -- is for income and appreciation which is much different than spending big $$$ on a hobby.

QA, what prices are you referring to as "stampeding" ? I can tell you the bubble in SPACs, NFTs, crypto, and other "new" assets has been wiped out. Prices down 50-75%.

I think there's a way around that as explained by Mark and Coinbuf.