GoldFinger1969

Thanks Jack...nice pics. Conder's question remains....if CI went under in 1984....then I presume that some of the assets including bags of coins took a few years to reach NGC when they commenced operations (in 1987). The label from above, as per Conder's classic NGC slab thread here at NGC (where else ! ) shows that this coin was holdered in or after July 2003. So almost 20 years after CI went under and many years after they would have been sold. Interested in how they determined chain-of-custody for the bags to make certain they were part of the CI Hoard. Maybe down the line DLange or another NGC person here can chime in.

How can you tell it was cleaned/polished ?

The MCMVII UHRs were called patterns -- not coins -- so in theory they would have been exempt from the EO. Charles Barber and his estate at one time had 8 of the patterns/coins; if still in one place in 1933, you could make a case they were exempt like gold pottery or other gold artifacts. This pattern/coin clearly would have been deemed "unique" and qualified as exempt under the EO's coin exemption, I would think. I think there are still lots of Saints in SDBs and probably even a few MCMVII HR's. But even in 1992 I was surprised to learn that 1 (maybe 2) of the UHRs had been "lost" for decades, since gold had risen hugely in price and the MCMVII UHR had sold for $200,000 in the mid-1970's. All of the MCMVII UHRs originally went to VIPs or Mint personnel....you would think their heirs or estates all knew about the original provenance of the coin/patterns....but I guess somewhere along the line a few were given to or inherited by folks who had no idea what they had.

MCMVII UHR: The PR58 Sans Serif pattern that was struck during the 1st batch of UHR's back in February 1907....was "found" in 1992 by the current coin head at Bonham's auction house. It was found at an estate sale and the subsequent sale was the first one recorded in the lineage of this coin. Apparently, he found another UHR in 1995, too. Hard to believe that a coin like this could be "missing" for over 80 years and wind up in something like an estate sale with no notice or publicity whatsoever.

I agree with these points. I know I would not trust a computer scan, even a sophisticated one, to judge a Saint. My own eyes + TPG + CAC (maybe). Good questions....I guess that is where AI could come in. But it may be an issue that appears simple on paper but in reality is much more complicated -- like self-driving autos.

For modern coins, and probably for the bulk of classic coins, I think Hi-Def scanners could do a reasonable job with MOST coins. Certainly moderns, where 99.9% of the coins are 70, 69, or 68's.

Interesting....that's about the equivalent of a $2.50 quarter Eagle.....I guess European mints struck smaller coins because they were more likely to be used by their citizenry. The bulk of our mintages were for the larger denomination coins, Eagles and Double Eagles. I would guess that the European countries used gold bars in their trade settlements, since it would be unecommical and a waste to have to use the small denomination coins they struck most.

Beautiful coins, BTW.

Am I correct that cameo/mirror proofs came into existence at this time for American coinage ? I don't believe that before the 1930's that U.S. coinage had that feature (at least not Saints). Today, all proofs whatever the denomination have that shiny mirror surface.

Wonder how they came up with 0.835% purity ?

I'm not really familiar with European gold strikings, except the UK (somewhat). With the United States...you had 1 ounce gold coins minted in only 2 types -- Liberty Head and Saint-Gaudens -- for over 80 years. Not sure if Europe had that type of consistency with large or small denomination gold coins. Even QA's Roosters were minted only over a relatively short period of time.

I think the stories that accompany our coins is part of the allure. I know you don't like gold so I would not expect the stories that are part of gold's history to appeal to you. Which is fine. But I find them of great interest.

Sometimes you can say some things definitively and other times you can't. It's a logical conclusion about the WF NM Hoard. It COULD turn out to be something else -- maybe a general's mistress inherited it from monies he stole -- but we don't know that. At times we have to make best-educated guesses and engage in reasonable speculation. Individuals can make up their own minds. Since the information at hand is not going to materially change the nature of the find or their monetary worth -- as if they were said to be personally collected by President Theodore Roosevelt -- my own feeling is that generalizations of this sort are perfectly legitimate under generally accepted research standards. FWIW, Ron Gillio probably has more details (or at least details told to him by those who had the hoard before him) which may or may not add more facts to the story.

From the thread, I believe that choice was made by HA. I made the same suggestion.

I believe he's the shortstop in Abbott & Costello's "Who's On First" !!

DEs backed Gold Certificates and were used in international trade (alongside 400 oz. bars). RWB's book has several chapters and lots of pages documenting specific usages. You even have specific year and mintages of Saints being tracked for particular uses (i.e, The Dawes Plan and 1925 Saints). It is believed that the 1908 Wells Fargo No Motto Hoard was originally used in 1917 for some international trade settlement.

Not smuggled, but international trade for the most part, Kurt. And with countries and boundaries disappearing for decades in Europe....local and continent-wide wars....gold coins found a bigger following among banks and the citizenry than over here in the U.S. SDBs and bank vaults in Europe probably had the bulk of today's remaining Saint-Gaudens coinage. Can't remember if RWB's Saints DE gave a split, but I would wenture that only a few hundred thousand (tops) were in the hands of collectors, dealers, and Americans using their 5-coin limit....the rest from European and South/Central American hoards.

An Off-Topic Thread has gone off topic.....

Because we have a longer Wells Fargo Hoard Thread, I thought I would include some other Saint Hoard findings that I've tabulated in this smaller thread. I thought a year-by-year rundown of the various Saint hoards might be of interest. Most of this information is from Roger Burdette's excellent book on Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles but also includes snippetts I've collected over the years from various sources. Down the line, I'll probably put it into a nice Word or PDF document if anybody wants it, with more details and commentary than these summaries. I'll do them a few at a time, unless there's so much information that a sole entry is best. Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: Here's the MCMVII 1907 HR, 1907, and 1908-D Short Ray No Motto: MCMVII High Relief: The actor Adolphe Menjou supposedly had 250 High Relief coins. A hard-money believer, he told many friends he had lots of gold squirreled away in various SDBs thoughout LA and California in the 1930's and 1940's. He died in 1963 and his coins were sold off in auctions up to the 1970's but I could not find any articles or public mentions of any sizeable 1907 HR stache at that time.1907: 95% of the mintage found its way to overseas vaults. Most went to Europe where they exhibited marks and abrasions consistent with handling during counting, stacking and re-bagging operations. About 35% may have gone to Central and South American countries where the coins remained in their original bags and were subject to much less moving, bag marks, etc. Survivors from these pieces are the primary source of high-grade examples of this date.1908-D Short Ray No Motto: No large hoards have been found. Most of the pieces came from European central banks looted by Germany during World War II and eventually stored in the Kaiseroda potassium mine near the village of Merkers. It is probable that most 1908-D SR NM coins came from here.

So is the Vatican coin I got years ago.

How do you even figure out how many "followers" you have ?

100 Francs ? They had to have something closer to 1 ounce, I thought most of the European countries minted larger coins. But maybe I am wrong. Yeah, I should have known about the 20 Franc....especially since I have one sitting 3 feet away from me !!!! I blame France for dumping the Franc and going with the Euro !!

I had never even HEARD of "Roosters" until QA started posting about them here. Now, I would like to get the 20 Franc (I believe that's a 1 oz. coin or close to it) Rooster down the line. Have never seen a Rooster thread or post over at CU or CT or anywhere else for that matter. There's nothing wrong with not having interest in threads here, even lots of them. If you find 1 or 2 threads that interest you....as a reader, poster, or both.....then Mission Accomplished.

Yup, alot of people I wanted to learn from got kicked out from over there. Outside of Roy Langbord, nobody over there who is must-reading that I have seen even though there are some good threads and good people there. Also seems to me that PCGS/CU is more akin to a "day trading" operation approach to coins -- lots of trend followers and folks hopping on hot ideas -- whereas here @ NGC we are more long-term investors looking for quality over time. JMHO, of course.

I wish we spent half as much time posting on coin stuff and creating interesting threads on classic coins or the hobby in general as we do sniping at one another. Ultimately, just like a thread or post on coins I have no interest in, if someone posts something you consider stupid or off-topic or inapproppriate or demeaning or whatever.....you can just ignore it. The good thing about forums is....if a topic or post doesn't get new posts, it fades away (like alot of the Saint-Gaudens threads I keep trying to keep on life support ). Life's too short, fellas. Let's get back to coins, OK ?