The "Consortium"

[IGWT]

Sadly, many collectors for years have felt they got a better bargain to buy low end coins at bid than to pay a premium for a high end coin. Despite repeated efforts by many to convince them otherwise....

 

Sorry, Bruce. I edited my post as you were responding to the original. I added a bit, and I don't want anyone to think that you were ignoring that part.

 

If the CAG works, I wonder how many millions of dollars collectors will eat. In a way, it sounds as though the Consortium is feeding medicine to the collectors that the TPGs ought to eat. It's worse than sad . . . it's fundamentally unfair. And I say this knowing that there are lots of people here who won't feel a bit bad because those collectors should have been astute enough to protect their own interests.

[Tradedollarnut]

The fall in value for low end coins is not going to be any worse than it would have been the next down cycle. They're always the first to become illiquid.

[ziggy29]

If the CAG works, I wonder how many millions of dollars collectors will eat. In a way, it sounds as though the Consortium is feeding medicine to the collectors that the TPGs ought to eat. It's worse than sad . . . it's fundamentally unfair. And I say this knowing that there are lots of people here who won't feel a bit bad because those collectors should have been astute enough to protect their own interests.

My only fear about this is that it will be eventually the collectors, not the TPGs, which will bear the brunt of the TPGs' inconsistent, gradeflationary work should the markets start to punish the non-CAG approved slabs.

 

To some degree it is the collector's fault for buying overgraded/subpar stuff for the stated grade (assuming they bought it at full retail for the grade). But I think that's also a symptom of many collectors (and a huge chunk of the coin market) collectively abdicating its need to educate themselves about what they were buying, letting the TPGs do the heavy lifting for them.

 

[jtryka]

This whole discussion is starting to make me want to collect beanie babies or world coins!

[Oldtrader3]

It is axiomatic that the small collector is always the one to suffer most of the cost of the coin market's excesses. Bruce is saying in effect: be big time, be rich, or be fleeced and begone! Many of us try to stay ahead of grade-flation, buy smart, within our budgets and do the best we can, not being market makers. This consortium idea is saying in effect that the small collector is canon fodder for the market and can never stay ahead or afloat. No offense, but frankly, it sounds snobbish and aloof to me.

[ziggy29]

Many of us try to stay ahead of grade-flation, buy smart, within our budgets and do the best we can, not being market makers. This consortium idea is saying in effect that the small collector is canon fodder for the market and can never stay ahead or afloat. No offense, but frankly, it sounds snobbish and aloof to me.

Much of the same could have been said when third-party graders started getting going 20 years ago.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Bruce is saying in effect: be big time, be rich, or be fleeced and begone!

 

You are putting words in my mouth.

 

The smart ones always come out ahead of the dumb ones - big or small makes no difference.

[TJ'S Coins]

I see this consortium benefiting two types of people.

 

1) Investors who want to insure the biggest bang with the "right" pedigree and approval of their coins without having to learn the market and grading of coins. For them the added assurance tells them they have made a "wise" purchase.

 

2) The new collector who wants to venture into higher priced coins and is not confident about their grading skills or ability to discern AT from NT or other hidden problems that might make the resale of their coin problematic. They also might appreciate having as much assurance as possible that they are making a good purchase.

 

I believe there is a place in the market for such a service, especially for those who are willing to pay a premium to bolster their confidence in their coin purchases.

 

The best way remains to learn all that you can about the coins you collect. Practice, practice, practice grading and looking at as many coins that you can, subscribe to boards such as this, learn, learn, learn by reading and talking with other knowledgeable collectors and dealers and most of all collect what you like and desire. After all, it is your collection, not someone else's.

[ziggy29]

I see this consortium benefiting two types of people.

 

1) Investors who want to insure the biggest bang with the "right" pedigree and approval of their coins without having to learn the market and grading of coins. For them the added assurance tells them they have made a "wise" purchase.

 

2) The new collector who wants to venture into higher priced coins and is not confident about their grading skills or ability to discern AT from NT or other hidden problems that might make the resale of their coin problematic. They also might appreciate having as much assurance as possible that they are making a good purchase.

 

Weren't these, almost verbatim, some of the main reasons TPGs were started to begin with (that and supposedly "sight-unseen" trading)? Are we just going to recycle the same problems every two decades?

[SuperDave]

Why is this thread such an even exchange of views when the other one is so rancorous? Never mind; rhetorical question.

 

My question, TDN, is this: Should the Group's efforts have the desired effect, then its' need to exist will be limited to short- or mid-term duration, say 5 years max. Is an exit strategy being contemplated - a set of conditions which would convince you that it's time to shut the lights off and go home?

 

Or would there just be a lessening of the presence, a shift from active to watchdog status?

[Tradedollarnut]

I honestly haven't thought that far ahead

[TJ'S Coins]

The Consortium is an added layer of security for the sight unseen buyer. Much like our computers need firewalls, anti-virus and spy ware software to ward off the bad guys on the Internet.

 

With grade-flation a reality, differences among the TPG's obvious, it is just natural progression that another group would seek to bring consistency to the coin buying process for those who want to purchase what I would call nice and expensive coins sight unseen. If people are willing to pay for this protection, it is their right to seek if it can be provided. It's all a part of free enterprise.

[Oldtrader3]

I am glad that this is being discussed in an evenhanded, rational manner. It is an important issue that will affect most of us and should not be blown off by off-the-cuff unconsidered opinions. Potentially, this may affect all of us, especially if it causes a loss of confidence, market death spiral such as the no-bid coin market of late 1979-1980. I hope Bruce, that you are not suggesting that this will be the outcome for the majority of the market as a result of forming this CAG enterprise?

[michael]

They can't afford to clean up the marketplace. Removing every overgraded/unappealing coin would break both of them. Sadly, this is the only practical solution that doesn't involve continued grade inflation.

 

 

i totally agree!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JamminJ]

My response, which I alluded to in Mark Feld's thread, is that I am tired of dealers and grading companies telling me what I may or may not collect.

 

Bu they know better than you. Better fall into line, dude.

[JamminJ]

I think most people would be better served just buying and selling bluesheet coins at bluesheet prices.

[Oldtrader3]

I am being silly, but I am tired and it is beginning to sound like there is no secure way to collect coins because the slabs themselves may soon be able to be compromised. Maybe we need a very expensive slab certified by commitee in a depleted uranium slab. This way, any one who tampers with it, or cracks out and touches the coin, will die from radiation poisoning!

 

Sorry, I could not resist that one.

[James_OldeTowne]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

That's good to hear and as it should be. However, nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone else whether a coin is worthy of their collection. They are merely providing an opinion that others are free to care about or ignore altogether.

Mark, that's baloney, and you know it. If the members of this mighty consortium are going to pay 20% to 40% more for certain bless-ed coins, you know darned well that that extra cost will just be passed on to me, the little collector when the coins are resold.

 

The fact is that, as grade certification has done, adding yet ANOTHER layer of "certification" WILL add to MY COST for buying coins. One way or another, the small collectors, who truly are the backbone of the hobby, continue to get squeezed out of the hobby by spiraling greed. If it isn't third-party grading fees, then it's the ridiculous cost of mint products, the absurd mushrooming number of coins required to form collections (ie. "state quarters" and "presidential dollars" - and now a mighty coin consortium of rich dealers paying more, and therefore charging more for coins.

 

As I stated elsewhere, if all these rich coin dealers are so concerned about the hobby, I have an idea: GET OUT and STAY OUT! Without your bloated money, the market slows down, prices fall, and coin doctors and crackout artists have less motive and incentive for their nefarious activities.

 

The fall in value for low end coins is not going to be any worse than it would have been the next down cycle. They're always the first to become illiquid.

Sometimes, I can't tell whether you are joking, and I hope you are in this case. If this statement was made in jest, I hope others realize it. The plain fact is that cheap coins are ALWAYS more liquid than mega-million dollar rarities, in any market!

[ziggy29]

Sometimes, I can't tell whether you are joking, and I hope you are in this case. If this statement was made in jest, I hope others realize it. The plain fact is that cheap coins are ALWAYS more liquid than mega-million dollar rarities, in any market!

I think this is true, but at the same time, there's always a market for the ultra rarities, and the folks who collect them aren't as economically sensitive to market downturns or economic recessions. Sure, they didn't get to be wealthy by being reckless with their money (particularly if they created the wealth rather than inheriting it), but at the same time, if these are serious collectors they will snap up major rarities when they come up, since you don't know when the next opportunity will arise.

 

Actually, I think the most liquid coins out there in a down market will be affordable quality. To some degree that's always true...but I think it would be amplified in a coin market downturn. There will be a LOT of schlock out there in a down market, but people of modest means who have an eye for quality -- original coins with strong eye appeal -- aggressively pursue the best for the grade today, and those coins are in such high demand from middle-class collectors that even if half the demand dried up for them (in some series), it would still outstrip supply in many areas of collecting. I'd say that's particularly true for items like mid-grade circulated classics with a fairly broad collector base.

 

On the high end, people may be reluctant to catch a falling dagger; on the lower end, there will be some people too busy figuring out how to pay for energy, food and health care to stay in the coin market, and the amount of schlock for sale will likely pile higher and higher...but there are more than enough collectors to absorb the really nice stuff with little more than a small amount of price contraction.

[Connecticoin]

It will be almost as good as eagle eye blue indians

 

Excellent Subject --

 

Mark, in your role as grader for the Consortium, will you reject EVERY blue proof Indian Head Cent, or will you be able to tell which ones were "conserved" with MS-70 and only reject those?

[Tradedollarnut]

Sometimes, I can't tell whether you are joking, and I hope you are in this case. If this statement was made in jest, I hope others realize it. The plain fact is that cheap coins are ALWAYS more liquid than mega-million dollar rarities, in any market!

 

You are wrong. Low end certified coins are very tough to sell in a down market. Ultra rarities will always sell.

 

[MikeKing]

I am being silly, but I am tired and it is beginning to sound like there is no secure way to collect coins because the slabs themselves may soon be able to be compromised. Maybe we need a very expensive slab certified by commitee in a depleted uranium slab. This way, any one who tampers with it, or cracks out and touches the coin, will die from radiation poisoning!

 

Sorry, I could not resist that one.

 

nevermind the drug impregnated on the holder which makes you compulsively resubmit for a higher grade

[MikeKing]

oh...i'm sorry...it's already there

[MarkFeld]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

That's good to hear and as it should be. However, nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone else whether a coin is worthy of their collection. They are merely providing an opinion that others are free to care about or ignore altogether.

Mark, that's baloney, and you know it. If the members of this mighty consortium are going to pay 20% to 40% more for certain bless-ed coins, you know darned well that that extra cost will just be passed on to me, the little collector when the coins are resold.

 

The fact is that, as grade certification has done, adding yet ANOTHER layer of "certification" WILL add to MY COST for buying coins. One way or another, the small collectors, who truly are the backbone of the hobby, continue to get squeezed out of the hobby by spiraling greed. If it isn't third-party grading fees, then it's the ridiculous cost of mint products, the absurd mushrooming number of coins required to form collections (ie. "state quarters" and "presidential dollars" - and now a mighty coin consortium of rich dealers paying more, and therefore charging more for coins.

 

As I stated elsewhere, if all these rich coin dealers are so concerned about the hobby, I have an idea: GET OUT and STAY OUT! Without your bloated money, the market slows down, prices fall, and coin doctors and crackout artists have less motive and incentive for their nefarious activities.

 

The fall in value for low end coins is not going to be any worse than it would have been the next down cycle. They're always the first to become illiquid.

Sometimes, I can't tell whether you are joking, and I hope you are in this case. If this statement was made in jest, I hope others realize it. The plain fact is that cheap coins are ALWAYS more liquid than mega-million dollar rarities, in any market!

James, in addition to unfairly characterizing my reply to your original point as "bologna", YOU changed YOUR original subject of "I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection" to "as grade certification has done, adding yet ANOTHER layer of "certification" WILL add to MY COST for buying coins", etc. Sorry, I'm not in the mood to be talked to that way or have further discussions today, especially when I addressed your post and then you changed the subject.

[WinstonWare]

I still don’t get exactly what the consortium is. Does the consortium have a website or something I can read through ?

[MarkFeld]

It will be almost as good as eagle eye blue indians

 

Excellent Subject --

 

Mark, in your role as grader for the Consortium, will you reject EVERY blue proof Indian Head Cent, or will you be able to tell which ones were "conserved" with MS-70 and only reject those?

For the record and in all seriousness, I did not hear anything about my being a (part time) "grader" until yesterday afternoon and have no information regarding any of the details. My best guess replies to your questions are 1) probably not (though it depends partly upon what you mean by "blue" - there are various shades and/or amounts in conjunction with other colors) and 2) I think so, but can't honestly guarantee it. Please keep in mind that such decisions/determinations will be group, not individual efforts.

[MikeKing]

I still don’t get exactly what the consortium is. Does the consortium have a website or something I can read through ?

 

Winston, I don't think there is any website specifically for this, but if you check out the legend website, Laura's talks refer to this, and also Doug Winter's site raregoldcoins.com makes mention of it.

 

[Bruceswar]

I still don’t get exactly what the consortium is. Does the consortium have a website or something I can read through ?

 

It works like this TGP Grades coin.. This group of experts looks at it and says "yup this one is good for the grade" Extra cost added as it will be accurately graded and problem free.

[WinstonWare]

I still don’t get exactly what the consortium is. Does the consortium have a website or something I can read through ?

 

Winston, I don't think there is any website specifically for this, but if you check out the legend website, Laura's talks refer to this, and also Doug Winter's site raregoldcoins.com makes mention of it.

 

Ah, I still don’t get it. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see. Thanks anyways…

[WinstonWare]

So one would submit coins like they would to a TPG?