The "Consortium"

[MAULEMALL]

Winners laugh and loosers cry , deal the MF cards

Well put.

[jom]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how this Consortium is going to, all by itself, make coins more costly. The fact is that if collectors (or investors or whoever) decide that this sticker (or whatever it will be) is worth the dollars to spend more, then prices will go up. If not, then no. It's just like what happened with the TPG's. At some point, when all is said and done, the coins will be traded based on what two people (buyer and seller) decide they want in the transaction. No more, no less.

 

If prices start going crazy and people pay idiotic money who's at fault? The TPG's? CAC? C'mon! Collectors and/or investors are. People need to be patient and learn how to VALUE a coin and not base your purchases on what someone ELSE thinks.

 

It's really not that difficult. Geez....

 

jom

Jom, here's why prices will rise. Suppose there are not third-party graders (and no CAC). If you want a coin at an auction, then you must look at it and decide what it is worth. There is one grade (yours) attracting one bid (also yours).

 

Now, introduce third party grading. It has already been looked (by the third party) at to decide what it is worth. Many collectors trust the third party. Therefore, there is one grade (the third-party grade) attacting multiple bids (many people who trust third-party grading). So, third party grading introduces a whole additional population of bidders who are willing to blindly trust a slab's grade.

 

An increased bidding population must introduce increased competition, and higher prices, and that is in fact what has happened over the last twenty years (in my view).

 

Finally, add in the CAC. This is yet another added population of bidders who are not only willing to trust the label, but are willing to increase considerably their sight-unseen bids - that is, are willing to bid even higher on coins they haven't even seen!

 

Inevitiably, this additional increase in competition will lead to yet higher prices.

 

 

I totally agree and that's a good explanation. However, you'll note I said above "Consortium, by ITSELF..." can't cause prices to rise. It needs these blind dolts who are willing to trust the label and walk off a cliff in doing so.

 

The problem here is that having TPGs and CACs is a great learning tool and they also provide a weeding out service for most of the . However, no one seems to want to take advantage of this learning opportunity and continue to blindly buy coins just because they are surrounded in plastic. I know this to be true because there would be no need for another level of third party influence such as CAC if people were using the TPGs as a learning tool to become better collectors. But noooo...we get to read all of the whining and crying about how their submissions didn't go well or they got boned by another shatty eBay dealer. I mean, at what point will someone start taking responsibility for THEMSELVES and start to learn about the coins and their values? I'm telling you...all of this spoon-feeding of the lazy collectors just leads to more fraud and abuse, IMO.

 

I just want everyone to know I'm not against what Sage or Mark or Bruce are trying to do with all of this and trying to help people who are new. That's great. I'm just trying to point out that much of the problems in our "industry" are created by the collector themselves so one wonders how much of this effort is wasted.

 

jom

[MikeInFL]

Mike I think you just descibed yourself. You can't defend your statements so you have to call me names based on some falsehood of yours or your imagination. Not professional at all guy.

 

I have no idea what you are referring to in your first sentence.

 

I will defend anything I say, and I called you no names. I disparaged your sales techniques and I disparaged your inventory -- two techniques you used against Mark, but you sure don't like it when others do it to you, do you, Parker?

 

Hypocritically yours...Mike

 

p.s. Maulemal, it's called a euphemism.

[MAULEMALL]

 

p.s. Maulemall, it's called a euphemism.

Main Entry: eu·phe·mism

Pronunciation: 'yü-f&-"mi-z&m

Function: noun

Etymology: Greek euphEmismos, from euphEmos auspicious, sounding good, from eu- + phEmE speech, from phanai to speak -- more at BAN

: the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also : the expression so substituted

 

 

 

[just-john]

this site has everything and now spell check and dictionary definitions got to love it.

This place is the BEST

[rbrown4]

Just an FYI, in this weeks Coin World David Bowers speacks of CAC where he provides some thoughts on how descriptors in the form of a letter such as A, B or C may be used to additionally describe the quality of a coin.

 

Interesting read.

 

Rey

[chinook]

I know you consider yourself some kind of self appointed expert Sage but 1200% times the price guide price is overpricing in my view.

 

I may not be an expert, but you are no mathematician. It is either 12 times the price guide or 1200% of the price guide. "1200% times the price guide" would be $14,700.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, and the buyer of said coin is entitled to his. Many collectors of toned coins (myself not among them) choose to pay well in excess of price guide values, and that is a fact. Just because in your narrow Greysheet-driven mind you cannot comprehend it, that does not means that others cannot. It's not my cup of tea, but so long as buyers understand what they are buying, I will not cry foul.

 

Unfortunately, jamming someone with a spotted modern proof gold coin in an ICG-70 holder at twice its real value is unethical, and I would guess that most of the forum would agree with that.

 

Take it easy on him RYK. Dont you know he has an MS in Accounting. LOL

[Houston Investor]

Make jokes if you want but any way you slice it the buyer is going to have to make 12 x the market price to break even on his investment. Without a doubt he is the end user. There is nothing narrow about using the greysheet as a buying tool either. This whole thread is getting insane. I am going to push the "ignore" button on a couple of you from now on.

[Tradedollarnut]

Make jokes if you want but any way you slice it the buyer is going to have to make 12 x the market price to break even on his investment. Without a doubt he is the end user. There is nothing narrow about using the greysheet as a buying tool either. This whole thread is getting insane. I am going to push the "ignore" button on a couple of you from now on.

 

You really have no clue about coins other than what's in print as a buy-sell spread, do you?

[Tradedollarnut]

 

Guess what the price guide is. Guess what I paid. Guess how much profit I've subsequently been offered on my 'investment'.

 

One thing I've learned in my decades of coin collecting: Except for the commonest of issues, those who are slaves to the price guide either buy very few coins [if they know how to grade & stick to their standards] or buy low end coins [if they don't]. Quality costs. Price guides are for average looking coins. Those who use price guides to point fingers at another dealer are fools.

[DirtyGoldMan]

 

Guess what the price guide is. Guess what I paid. Guess how much profit I've subsequently been offered on my 'investment'.

 

One thing I've learned in my decades of coin collecting: those who are slaves to the price guide either buy very few coins [if they know how to grade & stick to their standards] or buy low end coins [if they don't]. Quality costs. Price guides are for average looking coins. Those who use price guides to point fingers at another dealer are fools.

 

Let me take a wild guess and offer that you paid substantially more than a couple hundred dollars over the price guide for your coin (that's how much over the price guide the toned 12x Wash quarter of which we are referring was was), and that your profit on this coin would be in the tens of thousand of dollars.

[MikeKing]

Just an FYI, in this weeks Coin World David Bowers speacks of CAC where he provides some thoughts on how descriptors in the form of a letter such as A, B or C may be used to additionally describe the quality of a coin.

 

Interesting read.

 

Rey [/quote

 

Reading this is just making me dislike the whole idea even more.

It's just another challenge to my nerves as a collector.

I don't like it.

They're (generic they) trying to do it with stamps, they've done it with currency, and now they're trying to take coins a step further into a realm even more removed from the collector. I'm talking about collector judgement, a very important part of the whole thing.

 

Mark, my comment in the prior post above (long lost in the posting frenzy above) was not an unfair judgement call, it was a concern, and expressed as such.

 

What I'm saying in THIS post, IS a judgement call.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Just an FYI, in this weeks Coin World David Bowers speacks of CAC where he provides some thoughts on how descriptors in the form of a letter such as A, B or C may be used to additionally describe the quality of a coin.

 

Interesting read.

 

Rey [/quote

 

Reading this is just making me dislike the whole idea even more.

It's just another challenge to my nerves as a collector.

I don't like it.

They're (generic they) trying to do it with stamps, they've done it with currency, and now they're trying to take coins a step further into a realm even more removed from the collector. I'm talking about collector judgement, a very important part of the whole thing.

 

Mark, my comment in the prior post above (long lost in the posting frenzy above) was not an unfair judgement call, it was a concern, and expressed as such.

 

What I'm saying in THIS post, IS a judgement call.

 

Mike, I think I understand and appreciate your concerns, but I believe you might be making assumptions (or, if you prefer, expressing an unfounded concern)

like the one that follows :

....but what concerns me is that...and this is just my sense of it...the CAC is geared for evaluating high end coins and that a VF Bustie won't be worth their bother.

I don't see why CAC wouldn't care as much about a "VF Bustie" as it would an MS67 non-bustie.

[Keleum]

Got nothing to do with the CAC.

 

BUT HOLY MOSES, THAT'S SOME COIN, TDN!!!

 

WOW-SER!!

[davestuf]

I think it is someone out to take money from the coin collector who had allready invested into the grading of their coins by either PCGS or NGC. I am not sure who will benefit from this endevour except for the priinciples who are more than likely in cohots with the coin dealers who seem like the only other people who could profit from using this service. For me they can stick a sock in it.

[DirtyGoldMan]

I think it is someone out to take money from the coin collector who had allready invested into the grading of their coins by either PCGS or NGC. I am not sure who will benefit from this endevour except for the priinciples who are more than likely in cohots with the coin dealers who seem like the only other people who could profit from using this service. For me they can stick a sock in it.

 

Dave,

 

Welcome to the forum. I have read elsewhere that you have only been collecting for three months. Let's say hypothetically that you have purchased an NGC- or PCGS-graded draped bust half dollar for $5000 that you feel is a really nice coin, and your local dealer believes is accurately graded. You keep the coin for a year and either decide to upgrade it, your collecting directions change, or you need the cash out of the coin.

 

You take the coin to a coin show to sell, and six dealers who specialize in this type of coin all offer you about $3000, plus or minus 10%. One of them even has the same date and same grade coin in his case for $5000. You ask him why the coin in his case costs $5000, yet he only offers you $2850 for yours.

 

He replies that his coin his original, while your coin has been cleaned and tooled and has some putty covering up the tooling on the reverse. When you ask the other five dealers why your coin does not command a higher offer, they all give you the same response. A couple of specialty collectors are at one of the tables and point out the tooling on the reverse for you.

 

In retrospect, would not a $25 (or whatever the price) sticker that saved you $2000 been worth the extra price?

 

If you think that this scenario is unlikely, it happens everyday in the coin world. Coins that are low-end are sold for premium price, and the buyer does not learn this until he/she goes to sell the coin. An unscrupulous dealer may post that this is called "tuition", an educational expense. This is what shady dealers tell you as they are hosing you, in order to make themselves feel better about it.

[IGWT]

. . . [Y]our coin has been cleaned and tooled and has some putty covering up the tooling on the reverse. . . . If you think that this scenario is unlikely, it happens everyday in the coin world.

 

That's quite an indictment of the TPGs.

[Tradedollarnut]

Haven't you heard of the magic felt pad $10 Indian? Or the AT Peace dollar? Or the AT gobrecht dollar? Or the puttied Saint of Laura? All slabbed.

 

It does indeed happen wayyyyyy too much.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Haven't you heard of the magic felt pad $10 Indian? Or the AT Peace dollar? Or the AT gobrecht dollar? Or the puttied Saint of Laura? All slabbed.

 

It does indeed happen wayyyyyy too much.

 

Those are some of the high profile examples. For every one of those, there are a hundred or more of ho-hum coins being worked and slabbed bought, usually unknowingly, by regular collectors.

[Keleum]

Sage,

 

To further explore your example. I (the collector) wouldn't be paying the $25 fee, right? It would be more along the lines the dealer that had the coin stickered can now charge some premium for it, maybe. More likely the dealer is simply assured the price he can get for it, something above the published ask price. Without the sticker, he might get more, he might get less, he'd just better have a good story if he wants more.

 

I don't believe that the over the long term the CAC's "graders" will be so vastly superior to the TPGs as to catch all the mistakes. But that's ok, because now little old me can look at the ask price to buy the coin, so I know the "worth". The fact that myself or my grandchildren will be able to sell the coin also being able to look at the ask price is icing.

 

To sum it up, the sharing and openness of the CAC on the prices and qualifications is the service they provide. Unlike the TPGs in which the details of their service are "trade secrets", based on open standards.

[MAULEMALL]

200

[IGWT]

Haven't you heard of the magic felt pad $10 Indian? Or the AT Peace dollar? Or the AT gobrecht dollar? Or the puttied Saint of Laura? All slabbed.

 

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. The Gobrecht is my favorite example (well, "favorite" probably isn't the best word to use), because it was both harshly cleaned and colored before being slabbed by PCGS. I'm not sure what I wrote that made you think I hadn't heard about these examples.

[MikeKing]

it's the coloring...ain't it...

[MikeKing]

but all kidding aside, I do understand that the TPG's may have brought this on themselves. My question is : are these events (altered coins being undetected by graders etc..) that are common enough to make a group of people get together to supervise/quality control (essentially) the grading, a result of pure human error? negligence? compromise for questionable less than proper reasons?

 

 

[MikeKing]

and I also need to add that since both NGC and PCGS don't know how to grade Capped Bust quarters and halves, why would I think the CAC could do any better? So really, they'll be just adding another layer of cost to what is already a consistent blunder on the parts of the TPGs. And seriously, I doubt these guys are going to set the grading of Capped Bust material on the right track.

 

edited to add:

and what collectors are ultimately going to need to realize is that just because NGC, PCGS or CAC says so, doesn't mean that it's necessarily so. That doesn't mean you're not going to lose money if you pay a premium on a coin you KNOW is PQ and are forced to sell it early and quickly and then subject to the grade or mark/label on your holder, not being able to wait to find another astute collector to bail you out.

 

 

[Zoins]

what collectors are ultimately going to need to realize is that just because NGC, PCGS or CAC says so, doesn't mean that it's necessarily so.

I agree but how many will actually come to realize this during a coin boom?

[MikeKing]

zoins, probably very very few. Mass hallucination is a hard thing to overcome.

[rbrown4]

Regarding the concept of assigning a level of quality of a coin with letters such as A, B and C, which as far as I know, is only one of the possibilities floating around about how CAC could represent the results of their evaluation.

 

I guess first of all does anyone have or read any more information regarding that concept?

 

Secondly, isn't it true that graders at NGC used to internally and not publicly disclosed, the use A, B and C to designate the high, middle and low end of the spectrum of a grade such as MS 65A versus MS 65C?

 

Regardless of the acceptance or reluctance to accept CAC and it's purpose, it will be interesting I think to see what the final plan is and how it will work.

 

Rey

 

 

[Houston Investor]

It's just a handfull of scabs trying to cut their own piece of the pie. Greed, pure and simple.

 

Exactly what I have been wondering.

[Houston Investor]

Haven't you heard of the magic felt pad $10 Indian? Or the AT Peace dollar? Or the AT gobrecht dollar? Or the puttied Saint of Laura? All slabbed.

 

It does indeed happen wayyyyyy too much.

 

Why don't you show us some evidence, photos, etc. of these. What was the grading service response when this was shown to them? I would have more respect for your argument if you could show some concrete evidence with photos. I thought your group was going to have a website by Sept 1 - where is it?

 

While I don't see CAC affecting the cheap, less than $1000 stuff I do, certainly it may benefit the guy who is putting together the MS 65 $2.5 Indian Set - just show me some verifiable data on (1) this fellows risk without CAC coins and (2) cost of your service. Rather than send such expensive material out in the mail won't he want to bring it to one of your reps in person? If so where?