The "Consortium"

[IGWT]

Collectors Assurance Corp

 

Has the name of the organization changed, or was it reported inaccurately earlier?

[goldrarities.com-migration]

Collectors Assurance Corp

 

 

"Has the name of the organization changed, or was it reported inaccurately earlier? "

 

 

 

Collectors Assurance Corporation is the correct name, somewhere along the line it seems to have been switched around a few times but this is the original and correct name

[carson city]

Be careful what you wish for---Bon Jovi

[Keleum]

What is the Numismatic Consumer Alliance? Are they recovering fraud money?

 

The name implies collectors not dealers, is it a watchdog, group?

[goldrarities.com-migration]

What is the Numismatic Consumer Alliance? Are they recovering fraud money?

 

 

Check them out at www.stopcoinfraud.org and learn more about what they do

[carson city]

Something tells me you are only half right !

[TerrapinWill]

I see this consortium benefiting two types of people.

 

1) Investors who want to insure the biggest bang with the "right" pedigree and approval of their coins without having to learn the market and grading of coins. For them the added assurance tells them they have made a "wise" purchase.

 

2) The new collector who wants to venture into higher priced coins and is not confident about their grading skills or ability to discern AT from NT or other hidden problems that might make the resale of their coin problematic. They also might appreciate having as much assurance as possible that they are making a good purchase.

 

I believe there is a place in the market for such a service, especially for those who are willing to pay a premium to bolster their confidence in their coin purchases.

 

The best way remains to learn all that you can about the coins you collect. Practice, practice, practice grading and looking at as many coins that you can, subscribe to boards such as this, learn, learn, learn by reading and talking with other knowledgeable collectors and dealers and most of all collect what you like and desire. After all, it is your collection, not someone else's.

 

None of what the CAC is doing, or going to do, will impact me in any way. I dare say the same could be said for about 95% (if not more) of people who collect coins. I think this outfit will help people who spend big dollars on coins, and for them it's a good thing. But for 95+% of us, this really is virtually meaningless.

[michael]

here is the most impotent question all you coin babes

 

answer me this???????

 

will you willingly cavort with the "Consortium"

 

 

 

 

[MikeKing]

I just looked at a PCGS VF35 Bustie that was severely cleaned and should never have been holdered, and also over-graded. Will the CAC be paying attention to these coins or are they too low in the tier of the wealthy to be worth the bother to them. In other words, do they REALLY give a damn about the collector? I don't think so.

[DirtyGoldMan]

I just looked at a PCGS VF35 Bustie that was severely cleaned and should never have been holdered, and also over-graded. Will the CAC be paying attention to these coins or are they too low in the tier of the wealthy to be worth the bother to them. In other words, do they REALLY give a damn about the collector? I don't think so.

 

What would you have the CAC do about it? Have Frodo toss the coin into Mount Doom while he is there destroying The Ring? Put a contract out on the person who cleaned the coin? Obviously, such a coin should not get stickered, if submitted, but it is unlikely that such a coin would be. In this case, it sounds like PCGS's problem, and they do have a mechanism to take care of it. Of course, without capricious grading by PCGS and their reluctance to recognize and take care of their grading mistakes, there would be no CAC.

[MikeKing]

I appreciate what you're saying, Robert, but what concerns me is that...and this is just my sense of it...the CAC is geared for evaluating high end coins and that a VF Bustie won't be worth their bother. This disturbs me, because there's a general neglect of true collecting by the money makers in this hobby of ours, and I believe that if they are going to tout their horn about putting the squeeze on tpgs...which is basically what they are doing...why exclude the real bread and butter of the hobby just because it may not be $worth$ their while?

 

 

[Zoins]

None of what the CAC is doing, or going to do, will impact me in any way. I dare say the same could be said for about 95% (if not more) of people who collect coins. I think this outfit will help people who spend big dollars on coins, and for them it's a good thing. But for 95+% of us, this really is virtually meaningless.

That's the intention but there is concern for gradeflation with coins that the CAC dealers don't deal in. If dealers of those coins start submitting less expensive coins to the CAC, it could make an impact (similar to inexpensive coins in TPG slabs).

[MarkFeld]

I appreciate what you're saying, Robert, but what concerns me is that...and this is just my sense of it...the CAC is geared for evaluating high end coins and that a VF Bustie won't be worth their bother. This disturbs me, because there's a general neglect of true collecting by the money makers in this hobby of ours, and I believe that if they are going to tout their horn about putting the squeeze on tpgs...which is basically what they are doing...why exclude the real bread and butter of the hobby just because it may not be $worth$ their while?

 

Mike, I think you are making unfair assumptions. Please wait and see what happens and then be "disturbed", if you feel it is warranted.

[Houston Investor]

This special sticker denoting the Consortium seal of approval is nothing more than a marketing tool to sell coins for higher than retail prices. As long a the Consortium members are evaluating the coins that they own there is a major conflict of interest. Sorry to be so cynical but I don't trust the foxes to guard the hen house.

 

I agree Perry (and I don't trust any of them either) and in observing and analyzing the inventories of some of the consortium members both online and in person, it will be interesting to see what they sticker of their stuff. I can hardly wait to see just what will be stickered and so can a number of others I have talked to.

 

Take a look at coins and then evaluate them based against ANA grading standards - according to 4th edition page 34 some of the criteria:

Carbon streaks, striking defects, unattractive toning - 64 and lower

Finger Marks, PVC Damage, Black Spots - 63 and lower

 

Now go online look at the coins or if at a show look at them in person and see what you find. What really burns me up is seeing some sleaze taking a coin with obvious PVC damage and calling that "beautiful sea green toning" and then asking a premium for it - nothing but a ripoff. Or the coin with obvious carbon streaks descriped as "hints of charcol." Its like some of these guys have read the book "How to Describe Coins for Dummies."

 

 

[Houston Investor]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

 

Neither do I Cladiator. There is nothing more valuable than ones own numismatic knowledge and education.

[Houston Investor]

Sadly, many collectors for years have felt they got a better bargain to buy low end coins at bid than to pay a premium for a high end coin. Despite repeated efforts by many to convince them otherwise....

 

Sorry, Bruce. I edited my post as you were responding to the original. I added a bit, and I don't want anyone to think that you were ignoring that part.

 

If the CAG works, I wonder how many millions of dollars collectors will eat. In a way, it sounds as though the Consortium is feeding medicine to the collectors that the TPGs ought to eat. It's worse than sad . . . it's fundamentally unfair. And I say this knowing that there are lots of people here who won't feel a bit bad because those collectors should have been astute enough to protect their own interests.

 

Yes I agree IGWT, its unfair collectors may eat millions of dollars.

[Houston Investor]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

That's good to hear and as it should be. However, nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone else whether a coin is worthy of their collection. They are merely providing an opinion that others are free to care about or ignore altogether.

Mark, that's baloney, and you know it. If the members of this mighty consortium are going to pay 20% to 40% more for certain bless-ed coins, you know darned well that that extra cost will just be passed on to me, the little collector when the coins are resold.

 

The fact is that, as grade certification has done, adding yet ANOTHER layer of "certification" WILL add to MY COST for buying coins. One way or another, the small collectors, who truly are the backbone of the hobby, continue to get squeezed out of the hobby by spiraling greed. If it isn't third-party grading fees, then it's the ridiculous cost of mint products, the absurd mushrooming number of coins required to form collections (ie. "state quarters" and "presidential dollars" - and now a mighty coin consortium of rich dealers paying more, and therefore charging more for coins.

 

As I stated elsewhere, if all these rich coin dealers are so concerned about the hobby, I have an idea: GET OUT and STAY OUT! Without your bloated money, the market slows down, prices fall, and coin doctors and crackout artists have less motive and incentive for their nefarious activities.

 

The fall in value for low end coins is not going to be any worse than it would have been the next down cycle. They're always the first to become illiquid.

Sometimes, I can't tell whether you are joking, and I hope you are in this case. If this statement was made in jest, I hope others realize it. The plain fact is that cheap coins are ALWAYS more liquid than mega-million dollar rarities, in any market!

 

I agree with a lot of this James and especially with your comment about rich dealers. I do find TDN's quote (statement) there hilarious - my recent acquisition of a sizeable lot of Barber Halves in G-VG has very little downside, probaly $4 over melt. If we have a major coin market downturn, my Barbers will weather the storm but his expensive coins? - well I guess thats his worry but I remember the 1990 crash when a lot of coins went to 25c and 50c on the dollar or even less. They still haven't recovered if you compare the PCGS 3000 for 1989 vs now.

 

Are cheap coins more liquid in a downturn - you bet they are!

[Houston Investor]

This is BS with a simple solution as a collector of coins I will not purchase any coins approved by any Consortiun because it's BS. When I see a coin approved for sale by this Consortiun at a dealer or auction I will discount it price by 10 to 40 % when bidding and if I loss the bid so what.When I enter a coin shop with these coins I'll know the dealer is unable to grade his own coins and anything he tells me about coins is probably BS and he thinks I'M a sucker.THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY JUST THE MONEY AND ONLY THE MONEY.

Like Hi I'M from the Consortium and I'M here to help OR- Hi I'm from the Consortium and can see your a fool -OR more like this Hey guy's here a new way to get into their pockets and they will thank you for the peace of mind.

 

Yes John I agree - it is about the money. Lets face it, a lot of these guys, after playing the crackout game now have huge inventories they can't move. Blow them out on Teletrade and get in something else? I don't think so.

 

Again - take your copy of ANA graading standards to the show (mine is the 4th ed and on page 34 it lists criteria on grading range limits for coins with carbon streaks, black spots, unattractive toning, PVS damage, striking defects, etc.) and see how their coins stack up, especially the "stickered" coins if this ever get out the gate or doesn't fold before Halloween.

[Houston Investor]

This whole discussion is starting to make me want to collect beanie babies or world coins!

 

A good point - World Coins are looking better all the time. Not to mention currency.

[Houston Investor]

The more I think about this "added value sticker" applied to coins it amounts to another de facto tax on quality, premium coins.

 

Those who purchase only certified coins now will gravitate towards purchasing those that are both certified and approved by the consortium which will be inflationary on the industry.

 

Those of us who enjoy, purchase and trade raw coins will find an increasing price differential between the so-called "have" and "have not" coins that are not slabbed by a top tier TPG and approved by the consortium. Just as there are many slabbed coins that are hardly worth the price of the TPG process, there may be pressure to have them "consortium approved" with added expense, so that they will garner a few more dollars when it comes time to sell. Since the cost for approval will have to be passed off on someone it will undoubtedly be the collector who foots the bill. Or the one with average, widget coins will find any potential profit diminished. It sounds like the old adage, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer."

 

I'm willing to listen to any and all points of view to either convince me or discourage me from this proposal.

 

 

Some good points TJ - the collector and those of us who do widgets will be expected to foot the bill by handful of rich dealers and investors. Not in my lifetime!

[Houston Investor]

No grades will be assigned by CAC. Coins will be labeled as acceptable for the grade. There's a distinct difference between CAC and a TPG.

 

And we are supposed to pay more money for these stickered coins because we have faith that you know more than the TPG that graded it?

[jom]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how this Consortium is going to, all by itself, make coins more costly. The fact is that if collectors (or investors or whoever) decide that this sticker (or whatever it will be) is worth the dollars to spend more, then prices will go up. If not, then no. It's just like what happened with the TPG's. At some point, when all is said and done, the coins will be traded based on what two people (buyer and seller) decide they want in the transaction. No more, no less.

 

If prices start going crazy and people pay idiotic money who's at fault? The TPG's? CAC? C'mon! Collectors and/or investors are. People need to be patient and learn how to VALUE a coin and not base your purchases on what someone ELSE thinks.

 

It's really not that difficult. Geez....

 

jom

[DirtyGoldMan]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how this Consortium is going to, all by itself, make coins more costly.

 

People who are buying nice coins for the grade are already paying a premium. The people that will be helped are those that cannot judge for themselves what's nice for the grade and what's not nice. It will help them avoid buying overgraded coins for the wrong price.

[jom]

People who are buying nice coins for the grade are already paying a premium. The people that will be helped are those that cannot judge for themselves what's nice for the grade and what's not nice. It will help them avoid buying overgraded coins for the wrong price.

 

And that's a good thing. However, if I might add: IMO, if someone "cannot judge for themselves what's nice for the grade" they should be buying the coin in the first place. That's where the problems start...unfortunately.

 

jom

[Houston Investor]

People need to be patient and learn how to VALUE a coin and not base your purchases on what someone ELSE thinks.

 

It's really not that difficult. Geez....

 

jom

 

I definitely agree - collectors and investors need to take responsibility for their decisions.

[DirtyGoldMan]

One member I have already confronted on what I consider gross overpricing - listing a toned coin with a PCGS price guide price of $35 for $425 - since when does toning deserve a premium of 1200%?

 

That's a lame example. The coin was billed as "overpriced" by the seller, and toned coins, particularly those for generic coins (Morgans, Frankies, Wash quarters, etc.) often sells for multiples of wholesale. At least the person who bought the coin went into it knowing that that it was premium priced for the grade.

 

OTOH, there are sellers like this one on ebay who are wannabes. They sell coins graded "Proof-70" by a firm known to give out 70's like I pass out candy on Halloween. This seller is hoping that some boob who does not know better happens upon the listing and buys the coin for the inflated price. That collector will get hurt when he tries to sell the coin. Ironically, the seller also bills it as a "Super Investment Buy!"

[DirtyGoldMan]

People who are buying nice coins for the grade are already paying a premium. The people that will be helped are those that cannot judge for themselves what's nice for the grade and what's not nice. It will help them avoid buying overgraded coins for the wrong price.

 

And that's a good thing. However, if I might add: IMO, if someone "cannot judge for themselves what's nice for the grade" they should be buying the coin in the first place. That's where the problems start...unfortunately.

 

jom

 

Jom,

 

We had this discussion at the lunch with John Albanese at the ANA. The dealers present, including Laura and Mark, all agreed that there were plenty of collectors that did not have time to go to coin shows, attend grading courses, network with other collectors, etc., but still loved collecting coins. Should they be shut out from coin collecting because they have to stay home? Do they deserve to be jammed with overgraded ? Why not let them into the game, and give them an opportunity to not get hosed? It seemed like a reasonable answer.

[Houston Investor]

I know you consider yourself some kind of self appointed expert Sage but 1200% times the price guide price is overpricing in my view.

 

BTW your trying to label me a predator is nothing more than a reflection of your lack of professionalism, and lack of understanding of the truth. Frankly Sir, if it has not become already obvious to the other members here, I think you are a political action person for CAC. As far as your absurd comment about ICG's grading, I dare you to say that to them. ICG is service of high integrity, accurate grading, a quality product, and highly competent graders - I dispute your comment and - its lowball slam at ICG and myself in order to execute your political actions for CAC.

 

[DirtyGoldMan]

I know you consider yourself some kind of self appointed expert Sage but 1200% times the price guide price is overpricing in my view.

 

I may not be an expert, but you are no mathematician. It is either 12 times the price guide or 1200% of the price guide. "1200% times the price guide" would be $14,700.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, and the buyer of said coin is entitled to his. Many collectors of toned coins (myself not among them) choose to pay well in excess of price guide values, and that is a fact. Just because in your narrow Greysheet-driven mind you cannot comprehend it, that does not means that others cannot. It's not my cup of tea, but so long as buyers understand what they are buying, I will not cry foul.

 

Unfortunately, jamming someone with a spotted modern proof gold coin in an ICG-70 holder at twice its real value is unethical, and I would guess that most of the forum would agree with that.

[jom]

 

Jom,

 

We had this discussion at the lunch with John Albanese at the ANA. The dealers present, including Laura and Mark, all agreed that there were plenty of collectors that did not have time to go to coin shows, attend grading courses, network with other collectors, etc., but still loved collecting coins. Should they be shut out from coin collecting because they have to stay home? Do they deserve to be jammed with overgraded ? Why not let them into the game, and give them an opportunity to not get hosed? It seemed like a reasonable answer.

 

What's the "reasonable answer"? The TPG's or CAC? I'm not against any of these entities at all. But the more you make this complicated the more ABUSE you'll see.

 

For every collector who doesn't want to bother to learn why they are spending thousands of dollars on a nickel and get lucky doing so, there are others who'll get boned because the TPG's, they were told, are the "know all end all" of the coin market and everything they do is perfect. The more many layers of protection you create (TPG's then CAC then what?) the more abuse there will be because there is a preconceived idea that these entities are "taking care of you". I'm sorry but that's just FanstasyLand. If you are going to put out hard earned cash on something so esoteric you'd better to EDUCATED before you do, IMO.

 

jom