why do NGC holdered coins typical sell for less than PCGS coins of = grades

[realone]

It appears that across the market PCGS coins will command a higher price for similarly graded NGC coins, why is this ocurring, I know that there will be exceptions.

[MunkyMan95]

PCGS has tighter grading in some cases, holder appeal is a plus for me also.

[Oldtrader3]

This perception is fast fading, particularly on modern coins. Recent pricing in auctions does not show as much preference for a TPG as it does for the actual coin (at last!).

[Sequiturr-migration]

This perception is fast fading, particularly on modern coins. Recent pricing in auctions does not show as much preference for a TPG as it does for the actual coin (at last!).

 

But I've heard this refrain repeated for years, and still there is a preference. Perhaps the one grading company that has closed the gap a bit in recent years is ANACS -- and even there, I'd still prefer an NGC-graded coin to an ANACS one. All three grading services are good, but the original poster is right: the PCGS-slabbed coin will, on balance, command a higher market premium, and sometimes significantly higher.

 

You may properly argue the market premium for a particular slab is unfair or undeserved. But the market doesn't care about fairness or deservedness -- and neither does your wallet. What matters is the existence of a premium; the premium is what drives collector/cosigner/dealer behaviour, period.

[WoodenJefferson]

http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ArticleId=131

 

I'm not going to praise or defend any of the grading services, the link is just info for your consideration about the original question.

 

Does anyone have the story for NGC or the other TPG's service leaders?

[MikeInFL]

Ultimately it is because the market places a greater value on them. To be more specific depends on the series and even the actual coin, but in general my sense is the difference in prices within the marketplace is due to:

 

o The perception that PCGS has tougher "market acceptable" standards.

o The perception that PCGS grades more conservatively

o The perception that PCGS-labeled coins are more liquid

o The additional (sic) value associated with the PCGS Registry

 

All IMHO...Mike

[DirtyGoldMan]

There are many reasons and to an extent, it is self-fulfilling. The higher end coins in NGC holders tend to get crossed to PCGS holders, leaving the lower end coins for the grade in NGC holders.

 

As Mark Feld demonstrated in a thread a while back ATS, for the typical collector dealing with the typical coin, it may not matter. If you pay 10% more for a coin and eventually sell it for 10% more, are you better off than paying 10% less but later selling it for 10% less? Of course, if you are collecting coins, it really does not matter that much (except that I prefer the aesthetics of the PCGS holder, particularly for smaller coins).

[MikeInFL]

RYK, Great perspective and conclusion! There is a great deal of wisdom your words.

 

One other thought that occured to me, specific as it may be, is that PCGS's guarantee for red copper is better than NGC's, IIRC...Mike

[1956Half-migration]

All of the responses here made sense, but. I'll argue that from personal experience, based on what I collect, that the PCGS coins are NOT graded to a stiffer standard. In fact, I find that grade on the slab being equal, that the NGC coins are better than the PCGS ones. I've also heard a million times over there that you buy the coin, not the holder. This is telling in that if they have to keep saying that, even though it is sound advice, there must be a perception that the grading of PGCS coins is inconsistent at best. Second, a lot of what is being said and offered is based on how PCGS WAS percieved as a company, IE: Past tense. With the way they have been acting lately, alienating people by the boat loads, and generally being arrogant, that will errode quickly and they will fall far behind in that respect.

 

I also wonder if this perception is self made by PCGS. They, after all, make up the PCGS price guide. Its easy for them to put larger than reality numbers in there to make it look like PCGS coins are better and more valuable for some unknown reason. I know I rarely if ever paid their listed price for a coin just because it was in a PCGS holder. So I think a big part of the perception is marketing hype by them to make it seem that way.

[MikeKing]

Again, buy the coin and not the holder. You're caught in holder madness. Extricate yourself from that, and you will become a true collector. Until then, you're collecting plastic. Don't lean on the plastic. Don't use it as a crutch. Learn instead.

 

I don't know what coins you're looking at to see the price difference, I don't see it with any of the coins that I collect. And yes, in SOME cases, pcgs is a bit 'tighter' in grading than ngc, but this doesn't mean that ngc is on the wrong side and pcgs on the 'right' side of things.

 

Did you ever ask yourself why would an industry like ngc continue to grade in their fashion when a few people on the boards raise holy hell about this grading difference? Obviously they have their method and pcgs has theirs. It's not due to any incompetance or being a 'lesser' grading company. It's just a different (and slightly different) style in grading.

 

Additionally, all that stuff about more problem coins in ngc holders than pcgs holders is erroneous. You'd have to show me/us those exact coins you're talking about.

[MarkFeld]

I also wonder if this perception is self made by PCGS. They, after all, make up the PCGS price guide. Its easy for them to put larger than reality numbers in there to make it look like PCGS coins are better and more valuable for some unknown reason. I know I rarely if ever paid their listed price for a coin just because it was in a PCGS holder. So I think a big part of the perception is marketing hype by them to make it seem that way.

Actually, unless there has been a very recent change in the PCGS price guide's verbiage, as best I can tell, those prices do not necessarily apply only to PCGS coins. Among other things, it says: "The PCGS Price Guide is a guide to assist the coin buying public in determining values for all significant United States rare coins" and "WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN?

The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins. The prices are compiled from various sources including dealer ads in trade papers, dealer fixed price lists, significant auctions, and activity at major coin shows. Prices for the most actively traded coins are updated daily. Other issues are updated as needed. All prices are reviewed at least once a month."

 

I am unable to find references to PCGS coins only, and have even suggested such changes more than once in the past. My main reason for doing so was the hope that sellers of coins graded by less respectable grading companies would be less likely to be able to use the PCGS prices to try to take advantage of the unsuspecting.

[bsshog40]

I know that "bestcoin" shows the same coin values as PCGS, and I also have a coin management software that also has the same values when entering coins at specific grades. I have more NGC slabs than PCGS, but I usually just go by values from what they might be selling on Ebay.

[James_OldeTowne]

PCGS coins cost more, therefore, you have to sell them for more. I'm sorry to say, t all has to do with marketing (or at least 95% of it is marketing).

 

I simply refuse to pay more for a coin just because of the PCGS logo.

 

One other thing to consider too is the PCGS registry, which does not allow NGC coins. As yet another marketing scheme, that's an automatic impact on supply and demand.

[braddick]

Bottom line: There are more disapointments in NGC holders than there are in PCGS.

[MarkFeld]

Bottom line: There are more disapointments in NGC holders than there are in PCGS.

Pat, how much of that do you attribute to many of the better NGC coins being crossed over into PCGS holders?

 

Edited to add in reply to the original post:

 

There are MANY NGC coins which are better, quality-wise, than their PCGS counterparts of the same grade AND which sell for more money. A fair number of the lower NGC prices are based upon sight-unseen bids, which are often (deservedly) irrelevant.

[texasrichard]

I'll point out that a year ago I didn't even know who NGC or PCGS was. But having gotten back into a hobby I loved as a kid and seeing how it has changed since then is pretty interesting. In the end, its still "THE COINS" that makes me happy; not the "PLASTIC".

 

To answer the OP (and not trying to be funny). The reason that PCGS slabbed coins sell for more (generally speaking) than NGC slabbed coins of the same grade is because people are willing to pay a premium for the PCGS slabs.

 

IMO the question would be better asked as:

 

Why are people willing to pay a premium for PCGS slabs over NCG slabs for similarly graded coins?

 

I don't pretend to know the answer; but can tell you that I quickly figured it out without being a part of any forum. I haven't had that much experience looking at coins side by side graded the same but in different holders. I did however once at my first coin show narrow down 2 buffalo nickels. They were both MS66. One was in a PCGS slab and the other in a NGC slab. I looked at them quite awhile both with just my eyes and a loupe. I really wanted one in a PCGS slab as I'd already found that they typically are worth more (both coins were priced the same btw); and I'd already figured out that for me it was much easier to take a picture of coins in the PCGS versus NGC slabs. At any rate; try as I might to convince myself on the PCGS nickel; I "gut" said that the NGC slabbed nickel was nicer. So I asked the dealer to give his opinion... His response surprised me in that it seemed sincere. He said well the PCGS slab was probably worth more; but for sure the NGC coin was the nicer of the 2 coins. Long story short, I bought the NGC one and am quite happy with it, except for the fact that I can't get a good picture of it to save myself.

 

Anyway, back to the OP. I'm not sure about the crossing to PCGS of nicer coins as I've never tried that. The higher values on the PCGS slabs almost seems like a self fulling cycle. People pay more so they are worth more. Can it be that simple?

 

Sorry for my rambling post.

Richard

[Tradedollarnut]

One reason is the thinner PCGS plastic shows more of the flash of the coin. You take the exact same coin in each holder and it will look better in the PCGS ... therefore it sells for more money.

[DirtyGoldMan]

One reason is the thinner PCGS plastic shows more of the flash of the coin. You take the exact same coin in each holder and it will look better in the PCGS ... therefore it sells for more money.

 

I wish we could get NGC to agree with this and change the holder design. It might save the trouble, heartbreak, and expense of (eventually) moving my collection into the more aesthetically pleasing plastic.

[MikeKing]

One reason is the thinner PCGS plastic shows more of the flash of the coin. You take the exact same coin in each holder and it will look better in the PCGS ... therefore it sells for more money.

 

Coins do sure look better in PCGS holders

(hint to NGC)

[stckplunge]

I have posted this same question before and have never gotten a satisfactory answer. The above insights are the best so far. However, I just did a very quick analysis comparing the last 5 PCGS PR70 Reverse proof American Eagles sold on Ebay against the last 5 NGC PR70 Reverse proof American Eagles sold on Ebay and we are not looking at a 10%, 20%, or even 30% premium, rather, we are lookng at a whopping 50% premium ($1520.00 avg PCGS, $1010 avg NGC). All these coins were sold in the last 3 weeks.

 

Since there is NO good reason that there should be premium this high for PCGS (I thought grading standards were just that - standards), I will now be taking all my NGC PR 70 and sending them to PCGS for a crossover. Costs about 15 bucks to see if they cross, but somehow through some mysterious transition, the identical coin may jump 50% in value. At that rate, I would only have to be successful on a tiny fraction of my submissions to balloon the value of my collection.

 

Jeff

[jom]

There are many reasons and to an extent, it is self-fulfilling. The higher end coins in NGC holders tend to get crossed to PCGS holders, leaving the lower end coins for the grade in NGC holders.

 

Pat, how much of that do you attribute to many of the better NGC coins being crossed over into PCGS holders?

 

One reason is the thinner PCGS plastic shows more of the flash of the coin. You take the exact same coin in each holder and it will look better in the PCGS ... therefore it sells for more money.

 

#1 and #2 I've said for years. If coins that NGC (or any other service) has already graded correctly get put into PCGS holder due to price differences then all that is left are the low-end coins. In the market place that looks bad. It has a snow-ball effect, the more crack-outs the more low-end coins you see.

 

Adding to #3. The white holder makes it very difficult to take a picture of the NGC graded coin. Hence, many times the coin doesn't look as good in online-catalogs or wherever. Especially, if it's just an ordinary date/grade where the auction house doesn't spend any time to take the picture correctly (hint: Heritage).

 

jom

[jtryka]

This question includes a generalization that really only holds true for modern coins primarily. In my experience, the huge premiums like the 50% listed above, is for modern coins in ultra-high grades. Truth be told, the only real value these coins have over face or issue price lies in the holder, because someone needs the coin for their registry set. Crack that PCGS reverse proof from its tomb and presto you have a $200 coin, you just lost $1300 in value that the market placed on the plastic. On many older series, especially those not widely collected by date/mm, the premium is almost nil, with some exceptions. A 1925-S Saint derives most of its value from being a 1925-S Saint, not because of the holder it's in. The grade is also important, but as long as you are not trying to buy the highest graded example, the plastic means little. In these sorts of cases the most important aspect of the holder is that the coin is genuine, and not a 25-P with an added mm, so in that respect the two companies are fairly comparable. Such a coin would have a premium over a raw coin, but perhaps only a few hundred dollars for a $5K+ coin.

 

Bottom line, the "PCGS Premium" is directly proportional to the value of the plastic, the higher the percentage value the slab adds, the greater the premium. In the ASE example above, the "plastic premium" is 650%, so the higher PCGS premium is not at all surprising.

[okbustchaser]

 

Coins do sure look better in PCGS holders

(hint to NGC)

 

Of course, coins do sure look better naked than in PCGS holders.

(hint to everybody)

[MarkFeld]

This question includes a generalization that really only holds true for modern coins primarily. In my experience, the huge premiums like the 50% listed above, is for modern coins in ultra-high grades. Truth be told, the only real value these coins have over face or issue price lies in the holder, because someone needs the coin for their registry set. Crack that PCGS reverse proof from its tomb and presto you have a $200 coin, you just lost $1300 in value that the market placed on the plastic. On many older series, especially those not widely collected by date/mm, the premium is almost nil, with some exceptions. A 1925-S Saint derives most of its value from being a 1925-S Saint, not because of the holder it's in. The grade is also important, but as long as you are not trying to buy the highest graded example, the plastic means little. In these sorts of cases the most important aspect of the holder is that the coin is genuine, and not a 25-P with an added mm, so in that respect the two companies are fairly comparable. Such a coin would have a premium over a raw coin, but perhaps only a few hundred dollars for a $5K+ coin.

 

Bottom line, the "PCGS Premium" is directly proportional to the value of the plastic, the higher the percentage value the slab adds, the greater the premium. In the ASE example above, the "plastic premium" is 650%, so the higher PCGS premium is not at all surprising.

There are many non-modern PCGS coins that bring significant premiums over their NGC counterparts, though granted, those premiums are not usually 50% or more. And, it's not due solely to the registry set phenomenon. In a number of cases, it's due to more liberal grading on the part of NGC. In numerous other cases, however, it's due to the (incorrect) perception that a coin in a PCGS holder is a superior coin for the grade. PCGS has done an excellent job of marketing the value of their holders.

[Tradedollarnut]

There are huge premiums in classic coins as well. A gem seated dollar in NGC plastic typically sells for $20-25k whereas in PCGS plastic for $35-45k.

 

Of course, one main reason is that because of this premium the coins have been tried for crossover multiple times before most collectors ever get a chance to acquire them. The nicer coins cross and the not so nice ones don't ... leaving inferior quality in the NGC plastic. It's a self perpetuating thing.

[ziggy29]

Bottom line: There are more disapointments in NGC holders than there are in PCGS.

I believe much of this is due to crossovers. As mentioned earlier in the thread, perception becomes a self-fulfilling reality.

[James_OldeTowne]

What I find sadder than anything is the assumption that if a certain brand of holder does command a premium over another, it is somehow "better". It's too bad most folks are clueless about what matters most in certified coins (and to me, it isn't which brand sells "for more").

[bsshog40]

I would rather have a coin that is in better condition than a slab that looks better. The future holds many changes. Slabs will change also, they always do.

[braddick]

Bottom line: There are more disapointments in NGC holders than there are in PCGS.

Pat, how much of that do you attribute to many of the better NGC coins being crossed over into PCGS holders?

 

Many of them Mark, but let me ask you... generally, why is it not the other way around?

Why are not the better PCGS coins being crossed into NGC holders?

[gmarguli]

I am unable to find references to PCGS coins only, and have even suggested such changes more than once in the past. My main reason for doing so was the hope that sellers of coins graded by less respectable grading companies would be less likely to be able to use the PCGS prices to try to take advantage of the unsuspecting.

 

Unfortunately, it won't stop the dis-honest from using our price...or any other price guide that suits their purpose...to sell sub-par non-PCGS coins at inflated prices.