Here a first strike, there a first strike

[mark]

Let me quote a post that James EarlyUS made on December 10:

 

The "first strike" designation is an example of precisely why I can't stand PCGS anymore. It's a nauseating marketing ploy, and there are some folks who are numismatically illiterate enough to be suckered in by such garbage.

 

To be honest, NGC has come up with some amazingly awful marketing ploys of their own - such as the infamous "shipwreck effect" that pop up frequently on TeleTrade. However, in the cesspool of nauseating marketing ploys, PCGS stands head and shoulders above NGC. ANACS seems to be least susceptible to that kind of garbage.

 

Setting aside the PCGS bashing in the first sentence, I agree 110% with the thrust of this comment. Thus it saddens me that now apparently NGC and ANACS now have their very own "First Strike" designation. Here is a lovely NGC example. And here is an equally lovely ANACs example. Both of these little gems are availabe from the CoinVault. I understand the need/desire to increase revenues and profits, but it still saddens me to see these slabs....

 

Mark

[gmarguli]

Hey, you left out ICG. They are either currently out or they are coming out VERY soon. Fact.

[GAB]

Talk about keeping up with the Jones'

RIDICULUS is the only term that comes to mind !

[EricG]

And your feeling about NGC's starting to designate First Strike?

[michael]

so i take itif i got a monster fully struck 1881 proof trade dollar and i mean every star every detail front and back aRE MONSTER FULLY IMPRESSED and usually the proof 1881 trades do not come like this

 

and also the coin is also the most watery deep cameo monster stellar deep cameo proof on both sides

 

so this means that this is one of the first strikes off of a new die as many worns in the coin too from the intial polishing and also some grease left in this die so a filled in grease on reverse wing just like the vermuile coin

 

so this is definately a new die taken right out of storage polished and then wiped off the grease did noty fget it all so more than likely this coin is like the first strike of the frist strike die

 

so does this mean this 1881 proof only trade dollar qualifies as a frist strike??

 

so if you are goint to be consistant then you got to designaTE ALL FIRST DSTRIKE COINAGE

[cybersharque-migration]

I look at it this way: every dollar that some fool spends to buy a bullion coin for significantly more than melt value is less money being spent to compete with me for the coins I wish to purchase...which tend to have _some_ numismatic value, however tiny that value may be due to my execrable taste. In other words, these bullion coin scammers soak up money that might otherwise be used to bid up the coins I wish to acquire, and that, from my perspective, is a good thing. A very good thing. To put it another way, I wish I had the nerve to pull a scam as blatant as the one being pulled by these tele- and TV- marketeers, but I also do not begrudge NGC for wetting its beak at this trough.

 

On the other hand, those who are coin dealers might think long and hard about how to improve the market in the interest of future entrants. I am thinking long and hard about what remedies might be available to imnprove the market, and, yes, they include signing up plaintiffs for a possible class action under Section 5 of the Securities Act. The problem is that the current case law says that coins as such are not securities, and I have not completed my thinking about whether slabbing makes a difference. Or whether the Coin Channel has gone beyond puffing to turn the coins into securities within the meaning of the Securities Act. I'd like to think that they have....but I'm still not sure. Anybody (in New York City, Long Island, or upstate south of Albany) want to voluntee as a class action plaintiff?

 

O, dear. I'm not supposed to troll on this board, am I? Hmmm. To drop the other shoe, my username does indeed refer to the fact that I have a license to practice law, and I have been known to file some edgy lawsuits in the past. I just wish I had a better idea whether anyone else out there shares my thinking that the coin industry would be well-served to improve the reliability of the coin market. And I am thinking, among other things, about the severe disconnect between the PCGS price guides online and the real values of coins (though remarkably they did predict the value I realized off the one (raw) coin I did buy back when I thought the pruce guides were worth the hind end of a rodent).

 

My point is that anyone stupid enough to pay $300+ for a bullion coin, even a perfect one, when the melt value of the coin is under $10, deserves what he gets. But then, I've been known to rant about collecting bullion copins before, have I not?

[GAB]

I just finished trading 13 SAE's(MS69-ha ha) and a 2005 Marine PR69dcam(double ha ha)

for 15 NICE BU 22 and 23 Peace dollars, a BU 24, a BU25, 2 BU 24-S's and a very nice AU-58+ 26-S. That's 14 ounces of silver "mistakes" by the TPG, for 15.5 ounces of BU Peace silver !! I just can't help but think that when the [embarrassing lack of self control] hits the fan in this market (and it will!), my Peace dollars will hold up better than milky SAE's !!

 

[michael]

 

I just finished trading 13 SAE's(MS69-ha ha) and a 2005 Marine PR69dcam(double ha ha)

for 15 NICE BU 22 and 23 Peace dollars, a BU 24, a BU25, 2 BU 24-S's and a very nice AU-58+ 26-S. That's 14 ounces of silver "mistakes" by the TPG, for 15.5 ounces of BU Peace silver !! I just can't help but think that when the [embarrassing lack of self control] hits the fan in this market (and it will!), my Peace dollars will hold up better than milky SAE's !!

 

 

 

[Hoot]

Pure trash.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

Man! Did you see the prices SAH was asking?! I wish there was a means to put these suckers out of business. Their underhanded dealing and the way they take advantage of the ignorant is lower than a snake full of buckshot.

 

I don't necessarily blame the TPGS's for slabbing "first strikes" since they are a business out to make money (but they do perpetrate ignorance among the ignorant). There is definitely a learning curve in coins. I'm just glad that my education wasn't extremely expensive (although I took my share of knocks). There will always be cons and suckers. Which one are you?

[Beijim]

The NGC example to which the first post linked appears to be sold out, so the link is effectively broken, at least temporarily. Here's the detail photo for another (ShotAtHomeTV.com Item #12020090) which isn't:

 

 

Beijim

[jason888]

anything for a buck i guess!

i`ll put my second strike up to their first anyday!

[cpm9ball]

so i take itif i got a monster fully struck 1881 proof trade dollar and i mean every star every detail front and back aRE MONSTER FULLY IMPRESSED and usually the proof 1881 trades do not come like this

 

and also the coin is also the most watery deep cameo monster stellar deep cameo proof on both sides

 

so this means that this is one of the first strikes off of a new die as many worns in the coin too from the intial polishing and also some grease left in this die so a filled in grease on reverse wing just like the vermuile coin

 

so this is definately a new die taken right out of storage polished and then wiped off the grease did noty fget it all so more than likely this coin is like the first strike of the frist strike die

 

so does this mean this 1881 proof only trade dollar qualifies as a frist strike??

 

so if you are goint to be consistant then you got to designaTE ALL FIRST DSTRIKE COINAGE

 

If you find one, Michael, I'll give you five bucks for it and I'll even pay the postage.

 

Chris

[michael]

i found one many years ago and i do not accept your offer of 5 dollars plus postage

 

now offer me $10,000 and i will even

include postage for you

and

you got yourself a deal

[James_OldeTowne]

((( Let me quote a post that James EarlyUS made on December 10:

 

The "first strike" designation is an example of precisely why I can't stand PCGS anymore. It's a nauseating marketing ploy, and there are some folks who are numismatically illiterate enough to be suckered in by such garbage.

 

To be honest, NGC has come up with some amazingly awful marketing ploys of their own - such as the infamous "shipwreck effect" that pop up frequently on TeleTrade. However, in the cesspool of nauseating marketing ploys, PCGS stands head and shoulders above NGC. ANACS seems to be least susceptible to that kind of garbage.

 

Setting aside the PCGS bashing in the first sentence, I agree 110% with the thrust of this comment. Thus it saddens me that now apparently NGC and ANACS now have their very own "First Strike" designation. Here is a lovely NGC example. And here is an equally lovely ANACs example. Both of these little gems are availabe from the CoinVault. I understand the need/desire to increase revenues and profits, but it still saddens me to see these slabs.... )))

 

Let me just say that no PCGS-bashing was specifically intended in the quote. I was not picking on one company. At the time, I was aware of only PCGS pulling that kind of cr*p! Also, it's exacerbated on their side by their insistence that they even know which Bust dollar was the "first strike" of all U.S. silver dollars!

 

As I said though, this is the first time I've heard of the NGC designation. Just for the record, I find it completely nauseating as well that NGC has followed PCGS down this slippery slope. Why follow the dirty bathwater down the drain?

 

NGC, GET A CLUE! PLEASE stop hurling this kind of garbage at collectors! The hobby does not need more marketing-oriented nonsense gunking up the works!

 

James

[Wihlborg]

 

John

[Connecticoin]

The responses by NGC are deafening!!

[gmarguli]

The responses by NGC are deafening!!

 

What did you want them to say? While it is pure garbage, did you see the number of "First Strikes" PCG$ graded last year? It's a popular marketing gimmick. Would you turn down all that money just to take the high road knowing full well your competitors are taking the money?

[rexcat]

I just finished trading 13 SAE's(MS69-ha ha) and a 2005 Marine PR69dcam(double ha ha)

for 15 NICE BU 22 and 23 Peace dollars, a BU 24, a BU25, 2 BU 24-S's and a very nice AU-58+ 26-S. That's 14 ounces of silver "mistakes" by the TPG, for 15.5 ounces of BU Peace silver !! I just can't help but think that when the [embarrassing lack of self control] hits the fan in this market (and it will!), my Peace dollars will hold up better than milky SAE's !!

 

 

 

 

Great story Michael!

 

I'd take your end of that deal any day.

[IGWT]

What did you want them to say? While it is pure garbage, did you see the number of "First Strikes" PCG$ graded last year? It's a popular marketing gimmick. Would you turn down all that money just to take the high road knowing full well your competitors are taking the money?

 

Sometimes the high road takes you to where you want to go.

 

Mark Salzberg said something that might be considered controversial at the NGC brunch at FUN: Say what we will about shows like Coin Vault, they serve as an entry point for many collectors. [That's a paraphrase, but darned close to an actual quote.] I agree with that assessment, just as I think that the State Quarter Program has served as an entry point for many potentially serious collectors.

 

The TPGs will be much better served in the long run by nurturing new collectors instead of by helping Robert Chambers take their money. What will happen to new collectors when they try to sell a "First Strike" MS-69 ASE in a couple of years. If the new collector has a bad experience (which seems likely to me) the anger will properly be directed in part against the TPG that supposedly provides some degree of protection. After all, it is the TPG that ascribes some importance to the coin as a "First Strike." I feel the same way about placing "20th Anniversary" inserts in ASE slabs as though that says something about the coins themselves. The TPGs lose credibility whenever they try to make a market instead of simply serving the market.

 

Squandering credibility at the market entry point will diminish the collector base over the long haul. So I say YES to your question, Greg. I expect NGC to leave the "First Strike" short money on the table in favor of the long term financial benefit.

[Bruceswar]

What did you want them to say? While it is pure garbage, did you see the number of "First Strikes" PCG$ graded last year? It's a popular marketing gimmick. Would you turn down all that money just to take the high road knowing full well your competitors are taking the money?

 

Sometimes the high road takes you to where you want to go.

 

Mark Salzberg said something that might be considered controversial at the NGC brunch at FUN: Say what we will about shows like Coin Vault, they serve as an entry point for many collectors. [That's a paraphrase, but darned close to an actual quote.] I agree with that assessment, just as I think that the State Quarter Program has served as an entry point for many potentially serious collectors.

 

The TPGs will be much better served in the long run by nurturing new collectors instead of by helping Robert Chambers take their money. What will happen to new collectors when they try to sell a "First Strike" MS-69 ASE in a couple of years. If the new collector has a bad experience (which seems likely to me) the anger will properly be directed in part against the TPG that supposedly provides some degree of protection. After all, it is the TPG that attributes some importance to the coin as a "First Strike." I feel the same way about placing "20th Anniversary" inserts in ASE slabs as though that says something about the coins themselves. The TPGs lose credibility whenever they try to make a market instead of simply serving the market.

 

Squandering credibility at the market entry point will diminish the collector base over the long haul. So I say YES to your question, Greg. I expect NGC to leave the "First Strike" short money on the table in favor of the long term financial benefit.

 

I know this might be different animal... but what about coins that are pedigreed? Those have added value... such as the Binion Hoard... Those did spark alot of interest

[jtryka]

Man michael, I need to take a class from you on how to get trades like that!

 

On a more serious note, I was watching the "Coin Vault" last weekend (for entertainment purposes only) and they opened up some of the first new boxes of silver eagles for 2006. Well, inside each box is a tape that is signed by a mint employee verifying the number of coins in each box, and the tapes are all dated and then sealed with the lead seal and shipped. Well they opened a box of 2006 ASEs, and the tape was dated in August of 2005, and they made a big deal about the fact that the mint has been making these coins for months so they could have them out the first weekend in January. So, being a logical thinker that I am, how does NGC/PCGS or anyone know these coins are "first strikes?" Must a sealed box be submitted and then they look for the earliest date on the tape inside? Does the mint tell NGC/PCGS that the first strikes were on X date and if the tape inside a box has that date they are first strikes? Is it just because the coins look nice? Is it just because they were delievered in the first week of January (well, this wouldn't work considering the info above means the roll I buy in January could have been struck in December or even last August, how would I know?). There are a lot of questions on these "first strikes" and not much of an audit trail it seems, which certainly does not inspire me to pay any premium for any such designation.

[EZ_E]

Probably the only condition required is to submit them during the month of January, regardless of when they were struck. Just a guess.

 

I just don't see what facinates people about them unless they simply think that they are somehow getting a better product. It is all just alot of silliness.

[EZ_E]

Say what we will about shows like Coin Vault, they serve as an entry point for many collectors.

 

I'm almost ashamed to admit it but I did re-join the hobby after watching The Coin Vault . Heck, since I hadn't collected since 1981, I had no clue as to what a slab actually was. So, I shell out more than my share to them. Got a run of proof sets, ASE mintstate set, etc. Probably the only thing that I bought from them that has appreciated is my 1999 silver proof set (NGC) which I paid $300 for in 2002. Too much then but not now. Initially, I found the show informative, now? It is just nauseating to watch since it is tempered with outright lies and misinformation. And the idea that there are thousands of peoples paying those ridiculous prices for such and such an item. Amazing. For NGC, however, it is mainly a win-win situation. Big bucks for submissions and all of that free advertising. What recourse is there to the advanced collector? None. Their name is still reputable in the market and the coin is more important in the first place regardless of what holder sanctions the grade.

 

Now, a moment of honesty:

[IGWT]

For NGC, however, it is mainly a win-win situation. Big bucks for submissions and all of that free advertising.

 

I'm fine with respect to the grading of moderns and bullion. But I'm not OK with the "First Strike" or comparable nonsense. This kind of marketing will kill the enthusiasm of too many newbies who would otherwise become serious collectors.

 

As for your poll . . . I expect many to take the 5th Amend.

[Beijim]

I watch "Coin Vault" all the time. It amuses me, and frankly I enjoy Robert Chambers and his delivery. Can't stand Hollis and his silly "the thing is-is"-isms.

 

But I digress.

 

The NGC "FIRST STRIKES" designation, as it turns out, has nothing whatsoever to do with dies, die states, or any other numismatically interesting characteristic. Rather, all that's required to receive the designation is that the check tab tape (or other acceptable U.S. Mint documentation) shows that the associated coins were minted and packaged prior to January 31 of the year struck on the coin. See NGC's announcement for full details.

 

As you might surmise, for Silver Eagles this makes the designation almost ludicrous. Why? Because as jtryka correctly points out, the Mint has been producing ASEs since August. Anyone wanna take a wild guess as to how many ASEs the Mint will have cranked out from August 2005 through January 2006? "A crapload" would likely be in the ballpark.

 

Therefore, I conclude that a "FIRST STRIKES" designated ASE will put you in the exclusive company of at least thousands, if not tens of thousands of other collectors when the dust settles.

 

One final technical detail. I believe the check tab tape inside an ASE green monster box bears only one date, along with a line item breakdown showing that each of the 25 separate rolls in the box was verified by the signing Mint employee to contain 20 coins. How do I know this? Because Robert Chambers showed me on national television just after opening a 2005 box last year.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to finish ordering my "FIRST STRIKES" ASEs before I'm shut out of availability. I hear there are fewer than 1000 per state remaining.

 

Beijim

[EZ_E]

I watch "Coin Vault" all the time. It amuses me, and frankly I enjoy Robert Chambers and his delivery. Can't stand Hollis and his silly "the thing is-is"-isms.

 

What ever happened to the girls they used to alternate on the show? Some of them were pretty sweet. Much better than the Hollis feller!!!

[Connecticoin]

The responses by NGC are deafening!!

 

What did you want them to say? While it is pure garbage, did you see the number of "First Strikes" PCG$ graded last year? It's a popular marketing gimmick. Would you turn down all that money just to take the high road knowing full well your competitors are taking the money?

 

Greg, your competitors on Ebay are making big bucks selling AT garbage and third world graded coins. Why do you turn down all that easy money by selling coins honestly, knowing full well your competitors are taking the money?

[jtryka]

I watch "Coin Vault" all the time. It amuses me, and frankly I enjoy Robert Chambers and his delivery. Can't stand Hollis and his silly "the thing is-is"-isms.

 

But I digress.

 

The NGC "FIRST STRIKES" designation, as it turns out, has nothing whatsoever to do with dies, die states, or any other numismatically interesting characteristic. Rather, all that's required to receive the designation is that the check tab tape (or other acceptable U.S. Mint documentation) shows that the associated coins were minted and packaged prior to January 31 of the year struck on the coin. See NGC's announcement for full details.

 

As you might surmise, for Silver Eagles this makes the designation almost ludicrous. Why? Because as jtryka correctly points out, the Mint has been producing ASEs since August. Anyone wanna take a wild guess as to how many ASEs the Mint will have cranked out from August 2005 through January 2006? "A crapload" would likely be in the ballpark.

 

Therefore, I conclude that a "FIRST STRIKES" designated ASE will put you in the exclusive company of at least thousands, if not tens of thousands of other collectors when the dust settles.

 

One final technical detail. I believe the check tab tape inside an ASE green monster box bears only one date, along with a line item breakdown showing that each of the 25 separate rolls in the box was verified by the signing Mint employee to contain 20 coins. How do I know this? Because Robert Chambers showed me on national television just after opening a 2005 box last year.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to finish ordering my "FIRST STRIKES" ASEs before I'm shut out of availability. I hear there are fewer than 1000 per state remaining.

 

Beijim

 

Excellent points, but I would add that after reading the CW articles last night and finding that each die is used to produce about 6,000 ASEs, the current TPG definition of "First Strike" would include all coins struck from a die, from the first to the very last. Which is at the very least ironic, as you could have "First Strike" on the slab of a coin that was the very last one off a die! Also, I don't know when they stop striking silver eagles, but if they cease by the end of June let's say, it would mean that more than half the coins struck in any given year are "First Strikes" which once again puts any semblance of logical thought on its ear!

[dorancoins]

More overrated that Paris Hilton!