Why are some peopple buying 2024 imitation Morgan and Peace dollars from the U.S. Mint? 0

[RWB]

The alloy is incorrect. The weight is wrong. The finishes are wrong. The designs have been "kidified," and the asking prices are outrageous for any version. Is the next step, "beautiful, heirloom-quality, genuine 12k flash gold layered"?

Edited September 16 by RWB

[Coinbuf]

Because they like them.

[Henri Charriere]

I suspect the people who like them are largely unacquainted with the ones that were once in circulation. I draw the baseline at those who cannot recall where they were when Kennedy got shot. You cannot miss ice cream if you've never had any. 

[Sandon]

   These pieces should be considered "collectors' items" in the broader sense rather than numismatic coins. The same could be said of American Eagle bullion coins and numerous other modern noncirculating legal tender pieces. 

  In 2021 I purchased one Philadelphia "Morgan dollar" and one "Peace dollar". These pieces could be regarded as legitimate commemorative coins, although the proliferation of mint and "privy" marks on the "Morgan dollars" exceeded the abuses of previous commemorative issues. The "Peace dollars" look somewhat like the original pieces and better struck, but the "Morgan dollars" differ from the originals (especially 1878-1904) in numerous details and in unflattering ways. Much of this (such as the nature of the luster or "finish") likely has to do with changes in technology. "You can't go home again!"

  In 2023 I bought one each of the proof issues. I haven't been able to buy an acceptable original proof Morgan dollar for an affordable price, and I was interested in seeing what a Peace dollar would look like as a brilliant, cameo proof, something that didn't exist for the original issues. These pieces are attractive, but I have no interest in buying them again this year, especially with the latest price increase. I am also not interested in buying pieces with these supposedly classic designs as "reverse proofs".

  I would prefer that the mint not continue to offer these modern reproductions of classic coins each year, but they will undoubtedly continue to do so as long as there are enough of a certain type of people whom the person depicted on the classic commemorative coin shown below claimed were "born every minute!"

   

[powermad5000]

On 9/16/2024 at 6:50 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I draw the baseline at those who cannot recall where they were when Kennedy got shot.

I was born after Kennedy got shot, but I own about half of the series of Peace Dollars in various MS grades, and I do not own a single one of these modern Peace Dollars. As well, I own about half of the Morgan series in varying grades, but I own none of the modern Morgan pieces except for the 1964 Cook Islands Morgan tribute as there was talk of some Morgan dies found in a drawer at the mint with the 1964 date on them as if the Mint was thinking of once again restarting the series after a long break. 

[Mike Meenderink]

So, this is Roger trying to being controversial but here is why the coins are slightly different.

To re-create these designs for the 2021 coins, the Mint used historic assets such as coins, dies, and high resolution images to capture the artists’ original intent. However, the 2021 Peace Dollar isn’t struck in high relief like the original coin. The 1921 high relief design rose higher than the border, which makes the design elements susceptible to damage. The relief of the 2021 Peace and Morgan Dollars matches modern commemorative coin specifications.

The metal composition of the modern renditions is also different from the original coins. Both the original Morgan and Peace Dollars were 90 percent silver and 10 percent copper. The 1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act (Public Law 116-286) set the 2021 coins at 99.9 percent silver, similar to current commemorative dollar coins.

Edited September 17 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

Also, you can't call a US Mint produced coin of their own design an imitation. These coins are authentic US Mint remastered re-released Morgan/ Peace design silver bullion 99.9% coins. Not a threat to 1st series Morgan collectors. Relax

[ldhair]

I chose to not collect these for a few reasons but understand why others would want them in their collections.

They are nothing special to me. I quit buying this type of thing about 10 years back. I had fun collecting this type of modern stuff but it had to stop. I now own a mountain of modern coins and wish I had put that same money into classic coins. I don't want to leave this for my family to deal with. It's going to take a lot of time and labor to ever sell it.

Next was/is the price being charged. It's just too much in my opinion.   

[rrantique]

[rrantique]

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:27 AM, rrantique said:

My Dad has every single one of these in MS/PF/RP 70. Except for possibly 1 or 2 of the 2024s. They are better than just an average Silver Eagle bullion coin since they are "new" Morgans and Peace Dollars and have a nice eye appeal.

[ldhair]

I really like the look of the eagle on the reverse of the proof. Pretty coin. 

[RWB]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:56 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

To re-create these designs for the 2021 coins, the Mint used historic assets such as coins, dies, and high resolution images to capture the artists’ original intent.

This is, unfortunately, incorrect. The Mint has original models and casts for Peace dollars, but DID NOT follow them - that is the fundamental flaw. The rest of the differences were to facilitate striking bullion and calling them "coins." The "high resolution images" were simplified and "dumbed down" so they no longer reproduced the artist's original detail or intent.

On 9/16/2024 at 11:56 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The 1921 high relief design rose higher than the border,

This is false. A fully struck 1921 Peace dollar has a design slightly lower than the rim. That has been measured and verified.

Neither design in the 2021, 2023, 2024 imitation rises to the overall quality of the originals - and that stems from stubbornness of Mint officers. The same approach applies to the medals imitating 1794 dollars - there is no finesse, no style, no authenticity?

 

[RWB]

On 9/17/2024 at 12:06 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Also, you can't call a US Mint produced coin of their own design an imitation.

They are not direct copies or reproductions of the originals. Therefore they are imitations. That is the way language works.

[AcesKings]

I've bought the proofs from last year and this year. I just like the looks of them. I collect what I like, and I do like these. 

[dcarr]

On 9/17/2024 at 10:14 AM, RWB said:

They are not direct copies or reproductions of the originals. Therefore they are imitations. That is the way language works.

By that logic, 1921 Morgan silver dollars would also be "imitations" because they were entirely re-sculpted and not direct transfers from any 1878-1904 sculpts or hubs.

I think it is unnecessary to lecture members of this forum as to how "language works".

 

[dcarr]

After the US Mint skipped production in 2022, in early 2023 I struck these over original 1878-1935 Morgan and Peace Dollars:

 

Edited September 17 by dcarr

[RWB]

Kindly allow some clarity beyond those with bruised vision - the Mint is not making or selling counterfeits. These government produced and issued bullion tokens are legal "coins" at their nominal face value of one dollar and correctly marked. However, they and degraded, simplified designs greatly inferior to the originals. Even - by a stretch - of higher quality than some counterfeits that lack required legal identification.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/17/2024 at 2:40 PM, dcarr said:

After the US Mint skipped production in 2022, in early 2023 I struck these over original 1878-1935 Morgan and Peace Dollars:

 

Call 'em whatever you like.

I like them a lot!  

[VKurtB]

On 9/17/2024 at 11:14 AM, RWB said:

They are not direct copies or reproductions of the originals. Therefore they are imitations. That is the way language works.

The frosted devices were created by laser etching the basic design on the working hubs. This is an utterly different process from that used to create the original issues. It’s just tacky, to use a non-technical term.  

[Mike Meenderink]

The information I posted about the design and production of these coins was taken DIRECTLY from the US Mint website. RWB must be some kind of all seeing GOD if he controls what happens there or actually knows anything about this. On the subject of remastered re-released or imitation an original design can be altered by the original designer and it is not considered an imitation. They are new originals based on an earlier concept. Thats how language works.

[GoldFinger1969]

You know, if these coins/NCLT/commemoratives spur interest in coins, then I guess it's a good thing.  

My interest in coins and Saint-Gaudens DE's specifically was spurred by the release and my purchase of the MMIX UHR "Saint."  I'm not sure I'd be here without that coin being re-issued.

Most people who get interested and even those who purchase will not go further in the hobby....but a small minority...like Yours Truly ....will become hardcore, pretty-active coin enthusiasts for various types of modern or classic coins.

I think that's a good thing. 

[numisport]

On 9/17/2024 at 2:41 PM, RWB said:

Kindly allow some clarity beyond those with bruised vision - the Mint is not making or selling counterfeits. These government produced and issued bullion tokens are legal "coins" at their nominal face value of one dollar and correctly marked. However, they and degraded, simplified designs greatly inferior to the originals. Even - by a stretch - of higher quality than some counterfeits that lack required legal identification.

So your not really implying that overstruck dollars are counterfeit are you?

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/27/2024 at 6:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

My interest in coins and Saint-Gaudens DE's specifically was spurred by the release and my purchase of the MMIX UHR "Saint."  I'm not sure I'd be here without that coin being re-issued....

Believe it or not, I came thisclose to purchasing one some sixteen years ago.  That is until I reviewed the specs and suddenly realized 27 mm.  was nowhere near the 34.1 mm diameter for the pieces produced in the original run. [The regular Morgan and Peace line had a 1-1/2" diameter (38.10 mm.) in comparison.]  Except for the "Giant Quarters" (5-oz coins) I did not re-enter the hobby until 2019... some 10 years later.  

Now, as far as how language works, the OP has intimidated me enough to know using the term provenance when referring to the genealogy of coins is not only correct, but proper.           

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/28/2024 at 5:26 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Believe it or not, I came thisclose to purchasing one some sixteen years ago.  That is until I reviewed the specs and suddenly realized 27 mm.  was nowhere near the 34.1 mm diameter for the pieces produced in the original run. [The regular Morgan and Peace line had a 1-1/2" diameter (38.10 mm.) in comparison.]  Except for the "Giant Quarters" (5-oz coins) I did not re-enter the hobby until 2019... some 10 years later.  Now, as far as how language works, the OP has intimidated me enough to know using the term provenance when referring to the genealogy of coins is not only correct, but proper.  

The higher gold content and shorter diameter makes for a noticeably smaller coin.  It's different, they really wanted to replicate what Saint-Gaudens WANTED to do but COULD NOT. 

I believe no 27mm patterns exist/survived....just drawings.

[J P M]

On 9/17/2024 at 11:31 PM, VKurtB said:

The frosted devices were created by laser etching the basic design on the working hubs. This is an utterly different process from that used to create the original issues. It’s just tacky, to use a non-technical term.  

 They are nice because they are new looking. As far as I am concerned these coins are just overpriced bullion coins.  

[olympicsos]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:50 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I suspect the people who like them are largely unacquainted with the ones that were once in circulation. I draw the baseline at those who cannot recall where they were when Kennedy got shot. You cannot miss ice cream if you've never had any. 

Even when they were in circulation, they were like dollar coins today, unpopular to use. I do not have a problem with these modern renditions existing and am fine with something that I see as an extension of the original series. If half dollars can be nclt then so can Morgan and Peace dollars. 

On 9/16/2024 at 8:25 PM, Sandon said:

   These pieces should be considered "collectors' items" in the broader sense rather than numismatic coins. The same could be said of American Eagle bullion coins and numerous other modern noncirculating legal tender pieces. 

  In 2021 I purchased one Philadelphia "Morgan dollar" and one "Peace dollar". These pieces could be regarded as legitimate commemorative coins, although the proliferation of mint and "privy" marks on the "Morgan dollars" exceeded the abuses of previous commemorative issues. The "Peace dollars" look somewhat like the original pieces and better struck, but the "Morgan dollars" differ from the originals (especially 1878-1904) in numerous details and in unflattering ways. Much of this (such as the nature of the luster or "finish") likely has to do with changes in technology. "You can't go home again!"

  In 2023 I bought one each of the proof issues. I haven't been able to buy an acceptable original proof Morgan dollar for an affordable price, and I was interested in seeing what a Peace dollar would look like as a brilliant, cameo proof, something that didn't exist for the original issues. These pieces are attractive, but I have no interest in buying them again this year, especially with the latest price increase. I am also not interested in buying pieces with these supposedly classic designs as "reverse proofs".

  I would prefer that the mint not continue to offer these modern reproductions of classic coins each year, but they will undoubtedly continue to do so as long as there are enough of a certain type of people whom the person depicted on the classic commemorative coin shown below claimed were "born every minute!"

   

An extension of the original series is fine. They are offering proof Morgan dollars which is something that is not as affordable in the original series and many lack cameos or surfaces that were not dipped at one time.

On 9/17/2024 at 12:12 PM, RWB said:

This is, unfortunately, incorrect. The Mint has original models and casts for Peace dollars, but DID NOT follow them - that is the fundamental flaw. The rest of the differences were to facilitate striking bullion and calling them "coins." The "high resolution images" were simplified and "dumbed down" so they no longer reproduced the artist's original detail or intent.

This is false. A fully struck 1921 Peace dollar has a design slightly lower than the rim. That has been measured and verified.

Neither design in the 2021, 2023, 2024 imitation rises to the overall quality of the originals - and that stems from stubbornness of Mint officers. The same approach applies to the medals imitating 1794 dollars - there is no finesse, no style, no authenticity?

 

Not following the original models and casts is a legitimate criticism. Not having them in high relief as in 1921 is a legitimate criticism. Even if the composition changed from .900 fine, in our history the composition of gold and silver coins changed. With silver, first it was .8924 fine then .900 fine, then .999 fine. Other countries use .925 fine. With gold, we had circulating .9167 fine coins. I think bullion is the future of coins as more people see change as a nuisance. 

[jcass666]

Hello anyone want to chat

[VKurtB]

On 9/27/2024 at 11:37 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

RWB must be some kind of all seeing GOD

Well…, there IS that.

[VKurtB]

On 9/29/2024 at 6:01 AM, J P M said:

 They are nice because they are new looking. As far as I am concerned these coins are just overpriced bullion coins.  

Are there any other kind in the decade of the 2020’s than overpriced bullion coins? I jest, of course. What we have now is NORMALLY PRICED bullion coins, after DECADES of UNDERPRICED bullion coins that were heavily subsidized by the non-collecting taxpayers at large. Get used to this. Nobody is going back to how it used to be.

There is now a financial “firewall” between the THREE DIVISIONS of the Bureau of the Mint, Department of the Treasury. The three divisions are; Circulating Coin Division, Bullion Coin Division, Numismatic Coin Division. All three MUST NOW BY LAW be financially isolated from each of the other two. Neither the Circulating, nor the Bullion Divisions may financially support the Numismatic Division. It is simply not allowed by law any more. An unmintmarked American Silver Eagle comes from the Bullion Division. A “burnished” American Silver Eagle comes from the Numismatic Division. This is true EVEN THOUGH it is sometimes only the ‘W’ mint mark that SEEMS TO distinguish the two. One may never financially subsidize the other under current law. And ALL COSTS COUNT! Even seemingly ridiculous (to those unfamiliar with government accounting rules) costs count. Even a share of building maintenance counts. So does a pro rata share of depreciation. 

So what does that mean? It means that Numismatic Division coins are on an ever increasing spiral DOWN in sales and UP in price. Get used to it. Does anyone in the federal government care? Certainly not in THIS administration. Rich white guy problem.

Edited September 30 by VKurtB