Need advice from veteran. Newbie in coin. 1862 Hong Kong Pattern Coin. Just got NGC returned my coin with "Questionable Authenticity". 1 1

[econtse]

I know it maybe not appropriate to post here but I just want some advice from veteran collectors. 

I got an 1862 Hong Kong cent (PR-291) pattern coin and this coin triggered me started coin collecting and appreciation.

With great curiosity on its authenticity, I joined NGC as member and submitted this coin to NGC for grading 3-4 weeks ago. It returned to me today with a label "Questionable Authenticity". The NGC staff asked me to provide more paperwork (e.g., auction record, literature about this coin, etc.) in case I want to resubmit it again. 

After further research online, I am just aware that NGC only graded 1 of this pattern coin according to their NGC Census. While the other major coin grading company seems more experienced on grading this coin. I am wondering would it be worth further time and money to submit it to the other grading company? Did anyone got the experience that him/her coin got "Questionable Authenticity" from one grader but got slabbed by other major grader? 

Any sharing/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

L Tse

 

  

Edited April 16 by econtse

[Jason Abshier]

They probably want paperwork to back it up , a lot Chinese fakes floating around if they feel it’s suspicious or looks off they will question authenticity of the coin meaning they are unsure or they are sure this is not Real ! You can thanks Chinese for all fakery stuff they do to our hobby on daily basic … NGC /PCGS does do a pretty good job at nailing down fake coins … not saying your coin is fake , but they want some paperwork. Backing it up proving this is indeed a pattern coin you claim it to be … I’m sure someone else will chime in on this matter 

[J P M]

I was under the impression that NGC was the only one who graded coins other than US coins. I do not think finding paperwork would be an easy task.

[Jason Abshier]

On 4/16/2024 at 7:30 AM, J P M said:

I was under the impression that NGC was the only one who graded coins other than US coins. I do not think finding paperwork would be an easy task.

PCGS grades world coins as well so does ANACS and ICG … I have more PCGS German coins and medals than I do NGC but NGC does have more of data base for wide wide range of world coins and ancients … PCGS won’t grade ancients that I know of due to true authenticity behind ancients 

[Mike Meenderink]

The problem is its just too nice to be that old. Pattern or not the coin would have some discoloration and patina for being 162 years old. I am 100% sure that's a fake. Sorry

[Jason Abshier]

Stacks bowser sold one back in 2015 coin in this caliber ? No doubt there are fakes being made 

[Mike Meenderink]

After further review I am 100% positive this 1862 Hong Kong Pattern Cent is a counterfeit coin. See below diagnostics. The rim denticles are the instant give away as well as improper and missing details throughout the coin.  Cheers and good luck.

 

Edited April 16 by Mike Meenderink

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/16/2024 at 7:30 AM, J P M said:

I was under the impression that NGC was the only one who graded coins other than US coins....

You may be forgiven if you labored under that mistaken impression.  When opportunity avails, check out the NGC Set Registry. Just the list of countries that follow United States, from either A to Z or most to least popular. Put another way, if not for foreign certifications, Quintus Arrius (or whatever User Name he chooses to be known by now) -- minus his handful of French gold Roosters -- would be a total unknown.  🤣

[dcarr]

On 4/16/2024 at 8:46 AM, Jason Abshier said:

Stacks bowser sold one back in 2015 coin in this caliber ? No doubt there are fakes being made 

 

.

 

The denticles on this auction coin do not match those seen on the questionable piece.

 

.

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

The coin Jason posted is Pridmore 290, below are two, supposed, authenticated examples of Pr 291. They are a much closer match to the OP's coin, that's not to say that the OP's coin is authentic, or any of the other coins posted for that matter. 

Letters and numbers on the coin below look spindly compared to the PCGS coin with stems missing from the wreath, could be due to polishing but the upper loop of the "6" seems to be missing similar to the OP's coin.

The coin below was pulled from an auction in 2023. Why?  This coin exhibits full, or nearly so, details as opposed to the other two. 

Auction description:

"KM-Pn35; Prid-291. A laudable and interesting Proof Hong Kong emission, Pridmore relays that this example is a Mule Pattern Cent, with the reverse of Prid-261 being paired with the obverse of Prid-288. The overall appeal of the example is only increased by the proof nature of the strike, with fully formed and crisp details and rims, with a fair amount of mint red being retained. Light tone even adds a touch of character, making this Pattern one that is certain to capture many excited bids."

Which if any are authentic? I'm not familiar with these at all but only one of the three is of the quality I would expect for a pattern of this type. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/16/2024 at 4:43 PM, Henri Charriere said:

You may be forgiven if you labored under that mistaken impression.  When opportunity avails, check out the NGC Set Registry. Just the list of countries that follow United States, from either A to Z or most to least popular. Put another way, if not for foreign certifications, Quintus Arrius (or whatever User Name he chooses to be known by now) -- minus his handful of French gold Roosters -- would be a total unknown.  🤣

[Quick face-saving edit:  NGC & PCGS both authenticate, grade, certify and encapsulate foreign coins. (Now aren't you sorry you threw away all those possibly rare, MS, foreign coins you found in your roll-hunting activities?

🤣

 

[J P M]

On 4/16/2024 at 7:38 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[Quick face-saving edit:  NGC & PCGS both authenticate, grade, certify and encapsulate foreign coins. (Now aren't you sorry you threw away all those possibly rare, MS, foreign coins you found in your roll-hunting activities?

🤣

 

I do save the foreign stuff I find, but I do not send any coins out to be graded. I let others spend their money on that.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/16/2024 at 4:37 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

After further review I am 100% positive this 1862 Hong Kong Pattern Cent is a counterfeit coin. See below diagnostics. The rim denticles are the instant give away as well as improper and missing details throughout the coin.  Cheers and good luck.

 

Great detective work here, Mike!  You really went the whole mile and made Seattle Slew (back in 1977, for the newbies) look like a straggler at the clubhouse turn.  Now we are left with the questions we are forbidden to ask... which highly-acclaimed, reputable dealer sold the OP this coin, and for how much?  (Parenthetical comment:  anyone who makes a mockery of denticles, if found, ought to be drawn-and-quartered in lieu of a trial by compurgation.)  

[econtse]

want to express my gratitude to all of your comment and feedback (@Jason, JPM, Henri, dcarr, Mike M, F Mike) which really help me to decide my next action. 

@Mike Meenderink - really thanks for your time and detective work which I guess grader of NGC/the other major may perform similar step as one of their verification processes for rare coin as they probably don't have a real one on hand to rely on, hence, mostly taking reference to literatures/auction house catalog. Therefore, I can conclude that it won't help by providing NGC further paperwork or literature that I can observe.  

@Fenntucky Mike - thanks for digging out previous auction house records for similar coin. Great pieces for reference.

@Henri - as a newbie, I am more than happy to learn from past experience (most likely a painful one this time) hence I am happy to sharing with you guys on how I got this coin. I bought it from an old auntie in the weekend flea market of Western Japan. I got it from her at US$600 after bargaining. The main reason behind my purchase decision is there's a historical linkage between the Hong Kong Mint and Osaka Mint (1st mint in Japan). And Osaka Mint bought all coinage machinery from HK Mint after shutdown of the latter in 1868. there's some belief that certain specimen and pattern coins were passed to Japan as well.

Of course, to avoid saying the obvious, I believe a piece of history doesn't mean anything on the authenticity of my coin. 

Edited April 17 by econtse

[J P M]

$600 dang. If posable, can we see a nice shot preferably cropped of the obverse of this piece.

Edited April 17 by J P M