NGC Original bag fragment info 1 1

[Ohnoimbroke]

I recently came across this Morgan in this holder . On their site I try and look up more info on this / these . Are the seriously from a 1888 or so bank bag ? Any info would be appreciated . Thanks 

[Henri Charriere]

I have never met the gentleman personally, but word has it if N.G.C. says it's so, it is certifiably so. 🤣

[RWB]

?

[Sandon]

   I saw an advertisement for these recently but haven't been able to find it. As I recall, the small bit of cloth embedded in the holder is supposed to be from a bag that once contained silver dollars but not necessarily an original mint bag or a bag that once contained the coin in the holder. In my opinion, this is just a creative way to use what would otherwise be trash.

[powermad5000]

I was unaware of these until now. I would be of the opinion that it is a piece of an original bag as I don't think they would go through the trouble of the special label, but what bag that held what coins is left open. I suppose there is some type of provenance to the holder as is, otherwise NGC would not include this in a certified holder. Maybe this would be a good question to inquire on the Ask NGC forum. If you do find out, please come back to this and advise. I would like to know if it is actually from an original Morgan dollar bag. 

[cobymordet]

Maybe I need glasses, that I cannot deny, but where oh where is the bag in there?

[powermad5000]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:19 AM, cobymordet said:

Maybe I need glasses, that I cannot deny, but where oh where is the bag in there?

It is inside the little circle on the right just above the blue NGC letters.

[cobymordet]

Thank you Powermad, I am ordering glasses from Amazon tonight.  Wow, so NGC is really trying to dumb down and fluff up numismatics to the level of sports cards.  First the 10 point grading scale of NGC-X and now throwing in a snippet of cloth as though that adds any credence to the coin.  The end is nigh!

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/23/2024 at 9:38 PM, RWB said:

?

Let me explain... R.W.B. expounds upon such esoteric matters as the distinction between pedigree and provenance. He speaks with authority. His mark is irreproachably virtuous.

Likewise, N.G.C., a gentleman whose acquaintance I have yet to make, dabbles in the fine art of certification. Desecrating a sarcophagus of his is the ultimate sacrilege.  His word goes. In days of yore, when notaries were in short supply, he left his initials stamped into melted red wax.  That formality was quietly dispensed with when submission volume made it unsustainable.

A bit of trivia... the shortest exchange of correspondence occurred between Victor Hugo and his publisher.  The former, inquiring as to the status of his work, simply wrote "?" His publisher responded: "!"        

Edited March 24 by Henri Charriere
Word substitution

[RWB]

What a croc.

[Mike Meenderink]

The Morgan dollars are encapsulated with fragments of original US Mint burlap bags this coin hoard was found in. The BU adjective grade implys MS 63 -64 an average grade for Morgans. This series of holders is meant to reinforce the history of the distribution of mint products from the early days of the mint. Connecting and acknowledging the bag handling as a standard practice from the older days shows why many Morgan Dollars have excessive marks even on UNC coins.

Edited March 24 by Mike Meenderink

[RWB]

Bags were made from canvas, not burlap.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:14 PM, RWB said:

Bags were made from canvas, not burlap.

Incorrect it is Burlap. Burlap was used prior to 1920. 

Early U.S. Mint Burlap Bags hold a fascinating historical significance. These sturdy bags were used by the U.S. Mint for various purposes, including transporting and storing coins. Let’s delve into their story:

1. Purpose and Usage:

   • Coin Storage: Burlap bags were employed to safely store newly minted coins. These bags were particularly common during the early 20th century.
   • Bulk Transportation: When coins were produced in large quantities, they needed a reliable means of transportation. Burlap bags served this purpose effectively.

2. Construction and Material:

   • Burlap: The bags were made from burlap, a coarse, woven fabric derived from jute or hemp fibers.
   • Durable and Breathable: Burlap is known for its durability and breathability, making it suitable for coin storage.

3. Design and Features:

   • Sealed Bags: The U.S. Mint would seal coins in these burlap bags to ensure their integrity.
   • Markings: Some bags featured printed markings, indicating the denomination, mint location, and other relevant details.
   • Red Seals: Many early U.S. Mint burlap bags had red seals, which became iconic.

4. Historical Significance:

   • Minting Process: After coins were minted, they were counted, sorted, and placed into these bags.
   • Distribution: The bags facilitated the distribution of coins to banks, businesses, and other entities.
   • Collectible: Today, these vintage burlap bags are collectible items, cherished by numismatists and history enthusiasts.

[Mike Meenderink]

Edited March 24 by Mike Meenderink

[RWB]

Your source is wrong. Here are a couple of letters identifying coin bag material. Cotton Duck fabric, 8oz weight was normal. Rough burlap was tried in the Philadelphia M&R Dept in hopes of catching gold or silver vapor before it went up the chimney flues. It was also used as temporary insulation around ice and to wrap steam pipes. Burlap is never mentioned in mint documents relating to coin bags.

Burlap is a rough, loosely woven cloth made of fibers from jute and sisal plants. It was commonly used for holding farm animal feed with the bags used for barn netting, seedling plant frost protection and wrap for transplanted ornamental plants. It is far too abrasive for packaging coins, and it lacks durability.

Duck is heavyweight tightly woven fabric, made from 100% cotton often referred to as canvas.

Treasury Department,
Bureau of the Mint,
Washington, D.C.,
September 19, 1885
Hon. Daniel M. Fox,
Superintendent U.S. Mint,
Philadelphia, Pa.
Sir: -
Your letter of the 18th instant giving the result of proposals received to supply your mint
with duck canvas of not less than 8 oz. to the yard, has been received and the award made by you
to John Welsh at 8 3/8 ¢ per yard, is approved.
Very respectfully
R.E. Preston
Acting Director.

 

James S. Gary & Son.
Baltimore,
May 14, 1894
Eugene Townsend, Esq.,
Supt. United States Mint,
Philadelphia.
Dear Sir:
My contract for furnishing your Mint with 8 oz. Cotton Duck for Coin Bags for the year
ending June 30th next is approaching an end. I will be obliged if you will let me know if the
material furnished exactly suits your purposes, and if not, in what way you would like to have it
changed. I can make almost any width up to 44” and any class of fabric you might want. Our
business is making specialties and I would be glad to alter the fabric to suit.
I have seen no advertisement for your next year’s supply, but if you have gotten up the
schedule will be glad if you will send me a copy.
Yours respectfully,
E. Stanley Gary

 

[RWB]

PS: No US Mint or Treasury coin bags are known made of burlap. The source of your information - which is not given - likely picked a word that came to mind rather than checking facts. You should try the same.

[Henri Charriere]

    Point.  Counterpoint.    🤣

[Mike Meenderink]

@RWBGee history says different (and the fact these bags actually exist) but you were there so...

Edited March 25 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

@RWBThe material in the holder is burlap. So that alone proves you wrong no matter what your papers say. I believe my eyes not you.BURLAP

Edited March 25 by Mike Meenderink

[powermad5000]

To add a little levity to the discussion currently underway, I did note in the Mint list provided by @RWB that butts were to be delivered.

[Mike Meenderink]

I'm not arguing that there are no cotton canvas bags as we all know they are the norm,,, but the burlap versions did exist. The fragment in the holder is Burlap we can all agree on that right? So these coins came in a burlap bag from the mint. Maybe not many came in burlap bags and that is why the coins have the burlap sample on the holder to show its pretty cool.

[RWB]

On 3/24/2024 at 10:16 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Gee history says different (and the fact these bags actually exist) but you were there so..

Show your evidence. Documents, sources, etc.

Contracts for bag manufacture only refer to cotton Duck. No US mint ever used burlap for coin bags.

[RWB]

On 3/24/2024 at 11:44 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

I'm not arguing that there are no cotton canvas bags as we all know they are the norm,,, but the burlap versions did exist. The fragment in the holder is Burlap we can all agree on that right? So these coins came in a burlap bag from the mint. Maybe not many came in burlap bags and that is why the coins have the burlap sample on the holder to show its pretty cool.

I have no means of knowing what the tiny sample in a holder is made from, or who provided the samples, or any other information. It could be a slice of homemade ladies pantaloons from the Prairie Home Companion. That something is in a plastic holder attests to very little.

[Mike Meenderink]

 

On 3/25/2024 at 7:38 AM, RWB said:

I have no means of knowing what the tiny sample in a holder is made from, or who provided the samples, or any other information. It could be a slice of homemade ladies pantaloons from the Prairie Home Companion. That something is in a plastic holder attests to very little.

You really don't trust NGC do you? I'm perplexed as to why a coin certified by NGC is considered authentic by you, but a fragment of burlap bag is out of the question and could not be possibly real or related to the coin. Your research while commendable is not the final say on the history of the mint, not by a longshot. You could not possibly know what you don't know. You were not there.

Edited March 25 by Mike Meenderink

[Fenntucky Mike]

I believe these labels are exclusive to one seller, product description from their website below. 

Relic Labels

105 products

Dempsey & Baxter is excited to announce a ground-breaking moment in certified numismatics!

Introducing Our Exclusive New NGC Relic Label!

The Original Bag Series Relic Label prominently displays a fragment from a vintage canvas bag embedded in the label, offering each coin a tangible connection to the history of numismatics.

Certified Authentic: Every coin has been carefully assessed for condition and authenticity by leading industry graders at the Numismatic Guarantee Corporation.

Original Bag Series: Imagine a time where coins traveled by horseback and railway in bags across the country. What stories would they tell? How many have been lost to the ages? Certified coins from the Original Bag Series represent a rare pairing of numismatics and historical U.S. Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Early Bank Bags.

Collectible Value: Never in the history of numismatics has there been a certified holder that combines a numismatic rarity with a tangible historical artifact in an all-in-one certified holder.  For the first time, the actual canvas that secured our nation's real money for hundreds of years accents your rare coin in this first ever slab innovation.  Every coin fits perfectly inside of existing NGC slab boxes so you’ll never have to reinvent how you store your collection.

Don’t miss the chance to own your own piece of Numismatic History. Limited quantities available now.

 

https://silverdollars.com/collections/relic-labels

 

 

[Sandon]

   I think that @Fenntucky Mike found the ad that I recalled. Note that the seller is describing the bags from which the embedded fragment as taken as canvas and from "historical [!] U.S. Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Early Bank Bags" but not as the bag that housed the coin in the holder or as even having ever held silver dollars.  In other words, they are promoting trash as treasure. 

[RWB]

On 3/25/2024 at 11:09 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

 

You really don't trust NGC do you? I'm perplexed as to why a coin certified by NGC is considered authentic by you, but a fragment of burlap bag is out of the question and could not be possibly real or related to the coin. Your research while commendable is not the final say on the history of the mint, not by a longshot. You could not possibly know what you don't know. You were not there.

"Trust" is not the issue. It is "truth." Present your evidence, your data, your documents, your facts to support your claims -- otherwise there is no basis for believing what you claim. So far, you've done nothing but shown copycat blabbing.

Your comment, "Your research while commendable is not the final say on the history of the mint, not by a longshot," merely shows an absence of understanding. There is no "final say" in science-based research methodology - all we can do is gather and present the facts as available. At present, my research is the best available, and actually is the "final word" for now. That is simply because I have reviewed more original US Mint documents than possibly anyone except Bob Julian, correlated data, and published it (complete with original sources) as no one else has. Neither NGC not PCGS have performed or sponsored careful original research. Additionally, they seldom present facts to back up claims. They print labels and publish occasional hyped-up opinions as if they were hard facts. (When David Lange was around NGC had an in-house check on facts, and someone who was not afraid to ask for outside help. Now, there's nothing. PCGS never had that -- just a list of rumor repeaters who have no scientific research experience.)

Consider this: my NARA Mint archive database contains more than 500,000 documents, nearly all are searchable. Out of that there are 439 references to "bag," 35 to "cotton bag," 30 to "duck bag," and 21 to "cotton duck bag." For the word "burlap" there are 4 references, and for "burlap bag" there are -0-.

Again - and for the final time - I ask you to show your evidence and sources.

[RWB]

On 3/25/2024 at 11:26 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

vintage canvas bag embedded in the label,

Even the promoter says "canvas bag." (Presumably an observational assumption. Photos on the linked site show inconsistent samples - including some that differ from the appearance of normal canvas coin bag material.)

Nice digging Fentucky Mike !

Edited March 25 by RWB

[Mike Meenderink]

The sample inside the holder is burlap. Please tell me you know the difference. The person who wrote that description is either wrong or the sample is fake. Its burlap. Not canvas. Look at the weave. Look at the color. Burlap looks very different from duck canvas. 

[RWB]

On 3/25/2024 at 3:26 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The sample inside the holder is burlap. Please tell me you know the difference. The person who wrote that description is either wrong or the sample is fake. Its burlap. Not canvas. Look at the weave. Look at the color. Burlap looks very different from duck canvas. 

Neither you nor I know what fabric is in the holders or where it came from. If one looks at the items in Fentucky Mike's posted link, the samples are inconsistent. If NGC said they were burlap, then that is at odds with the promoter's descriptions and the truth about US Mint bags. Hence, my thought that NGC's writer simply used whatever word came to their mind, and that was it. The complete "package" is good evidence that nobody at NGC cared to research anything, or get an affidavit from the promoter.

You can believe all the lies you want.