1992 - D Close AM possibly found (verification required) 1 1

[Mustacheman]

Hey guys! So I stumbled upon this little guy about an hour ago. The appraiser I took it to said it was “not even close” to a Close AM but I took a better magnification than his and I think he was wrong.

 

thoughts?

[Coinbuf]

Just curious, how is it that you "just stumbled on it an hour ago" yet have had time to take it to an appraiser.

Edited March 21 by Coinbuf

[Mustacheman]

On 3/21/2024 at 6:59 PM, Coinbuf said:

Just curious, how is it that you "just stumbled on it an hour ago" yet have had time to take it to an appraiser.

I live in Massachusetts. We have everything we need where we want it to be. That’s Boston Strong baby 💪

[Coinbuf]

On 3/21/2024 at 4:09 PM, Mustacheman said:

I live in Massachusetts. We have everything we need where we want it to be. That’s Boston Strong baby 💪

Interesting, a good friend of mine grew up in the Boston area and I never got the impression from him that everything is where it should be.   At any rate your "expert" is correct and you are incorrect, that is not a CAM, not even close.

Edited March 21 by Coinbuf

[Mustacheman]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:15 PM, Coinbuf said:

Interesting, a good friend of mine grew up in the Boston area and I never got the impression from him that everything is where it should be.   At any rate your "expert" is correct and you are incorrect, that is not a CAM, not even close.

Your friend must be in the wrong line of work if that’s the case. How come it is not a CAM? Why is there a pooling of die that makes it look like it was to be brought closer together??? And why is the FG exactly where it needs to be for a CAM? I need another opinion. Not one from Mr. High Horse over here. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:28 PM, Mustacheman said:

....I need another opinion. Not one from Mr. High Horse over here. 

I will second @Coinbuf.  I do not believe it to be anywhere close to a CAM.

[Mustacheman]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:45 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I will second @Coinbuf.  I do not believe it to be anywhere close to a CAM.

You do not believe it to be anywhere close to a CAM because it looks too close to call. It looks like it is in between a WIDE and a CLOSE... which is why I pointed out the slight pooling of die coming closer towards the M as it seems like the machine was about to make it a close AM but they stopped. This is why I need an expert. Not schmucks.

[Greenstang]

It is a WAM, just look at the position of the FG.

Edited March 22 by Greenstang

[cobymordet]

Hiya, you have consulted a multitude of experts and have been provided the same answer unanimously.   At this juncture, the only recourse you have is to spend $50-75 and get it graded and certified as CAM.   Please let us know how it turns out.  The below pic is from PCGS, it looks a bit closer than your coin. 

 

Good luck!

[Mustacheman]

On 3/21/2024 at 8:00 PM, Greenstang said:

It is a WAM, just look at the position of the FG.

This is true and this is the key indication that it is indeed a WAM. But I’m still so confused about that pooling of die leaning closer towards the M. It doesn’t make sense to me. Of course the machinery is not perfect to make what they want to make on the spot but could this has been a CLOSE that was turned to a WIDE? That is what I’m trying to have answered. 
 

Thank you for giving an actual legitimate answer btw. 

[Mustacheman]

On 3/21/2024 at 8:10 PM, cobymordet said:

Hiya, you have consulted a multitude of experts and have been provided the same answer unanimously.   At this juncture, the only recourse you have is to spend $50-75 and get it graded and certified as CAM.   Please let us know how it turns out.  The below pic is from PCGS, it looks a bit closer than your coin. 

 

Good luck!

We all have at least one Body Bag in our career. That is what I have heard being a coin collector. If this is indeed a BB well lesson learned. But I’m still royally stumped about the die pooling. 

[cobymordet]

Me personally, I would focus on the A & the M, if they are touching or absurdly close to touching, then I would post it on this site for further determination.  These are pricey and pricey means rare.  I have searched thousands of 1992's and got a lot of rot and split plating.  LOL, I always found a close AM when a 1993 got mixed in my 92's, and wow, was I excited for 1 sec. . . then reality set in. 

This is info from PCGS:

Distinguishing a Close AM from a Wide AM

If you’re looking for a 1992 Close AM Lincoln Cent from either of the two mints that produced these coins, you’ll need to flip all your 1992 “pennies” over so you can view their reverses. The variety in question is found in the legend “UNITED STATES oF AMERICA,” scrawled out in semicircular fashion across the top half of the reverse along the rim. In particular, one must pay close attention to the letters “A” and “M” of “AMERICA,” right between the 1 o’clock and 2 o’clock positions in the upper right quadrant of the reverse.

What makes a Close AM? Look at the bases of the “A” and “M.” If there is a perceptible gap, then it is a regular 1992 Wide AM Lincoln Cent and there is no need to look any further into the diagnostics. But if the right base of the “A” appears to be touching the left base of the “M,” you’ve landed your big circulation find. A further diagnostic shows designer Frank Gasparro’s “FG” initials closer to the right side of the Lincoln Memorial building than usual. Amazingly, relatively few collectors know of or think to look for this variety on their 1992 Lincoln Cents, meaning this rarity is ripe for the picking.

Why Was the 1992 Close AM Cent Struck?

The reverse die with of the Close AM variety was intended to be used for striking circulation-strike Lincoln Cents beginning in 1993. We may never know the full story as to how these 1992 and 1992-D Close AM Lincoln Cents were distributed into circulation, but these were most likely the result of test strikes in late 1992 conducted to determine how well the new reverse die would work out. Of course, such a step is necessary before producing all the dies necessary for coining 1993 Lincoln Cents – the latter a costly and time-consuming affair.

While the Close AM format became par for the course on circulation strikes beginning in 1993, the United States Mint continued using the Wide AM reverse die for producing proof Lincoln Cents. Of course, further mistakes occurred with the pairing of Close AM and Wide AM dies down the pike, and this can be seen in the parade of Wide AM business-strike Lincoln Cents that were produced for circulation but apparently employing reverse dies intended for proofs.

How Much Are the 1992 Close AM Cents Worth?

Let there be no mistake, the 1992 and 1992-D Close AM Lincoln Cents are well worth one’s while to look for. Both are extremely rare coins, though the 1992-D appears to be relatively more common than the 1992 examples hailing from Philly. Circulated examples of both coins trade for thousands of dollars, with the 1992 taking $2,500 in AU55BN and the 1992-D fetching $2,100 in the same grade. Prices only climb from there, with the Philadelphia piece valued at $7,000 in MS63RD and the Denver specimen going for $3,750 at that level.

The record prices for both these varieties take bidders into five-figure territory, which is not surprising given the slim number of examples known across the board. PCGS has graded fewer than 20 examples of the 1992 Close AM across all grades and color designations (BN, RB, and RD), while 75 specimens of the 1992-D have crossed the company’s grading desks into holders. A stellar example of the 1992 grading PCGS MS67RD commanded $25,850 in a 2017 Heritage Auctions event. Meanwhile, a 1992-D graded PCGS MS65RD realized $14,100 in a 2014 Heritage Auctions sale.

 

Keep searching, but keep yer feet on the ground. 

 

[Just Bob]

OP, would you please explain what you mean by "pooling of die?"

Your coin is definitely not a "close AM," by the way. The gap between the letters is too wide, and the position of the designer's initials and shape of the "G" are unmistakable indicators of a "wide AM" variety.

[powermad5000]

It is not too close to call. It is not even close to being a CAM. In a cent with CAM, the letters A and M are nearly touching at the bases. On your cent, there is plenty of gap between the bases of those letters.

I have never heard of "die pooling" in my 45+ years of collecting and I do not think it is something that has just been discovered after hundreds of years of minting of coinage. Once a coin is struck from a set of dies, the details on the surfaces of the struck coin cannot move over time. Also, once a die has been manufactured, those details are set in place until the die breaks or wears out and is replaced. I am not sure what this concept is of die elements moving over time. Basically, what I am saying is a CAM cannot shift on the die to become a WAM. It just is not possible for that to happen.

[Sandon]

    I've never heard of "die pooling" or "pooling of die" either.  Where in numismatic literature did you see these terms? What do they mean?

Edited March 22 by Sandon

[Mustacheman]

 

On 3/22/2024 at 8:51 AM, Sandon said:

    I've never heard of "die pooling" or "pooling of die" either.  Where in numismatic literature did you see these terms? What do they mean?

 

On 3/22/2024 at 1:07 AM, powermad5000 said:

It is not too close to call. It is not even close to being a CAM. In a cent with CAM, the letters A and M are nearly touching at the bases. On your cent, there is plenty of gap between the bases of those letters.

I have never heard of "die pooling" in my 45+ years of collecting and I do not think it is something that has just been discovered after hundreds of years of minting of coinage. Once a coin is struck from a set of dies, the details on the surfaces of the struck coin cannot move over time. Also, once a die has been manufactured, those details are set in place until the die breaks or wears out and is replaced. I am not sure what this concept is of die elements moving over time. Basically, what I am saying is a CAM cannot shift on the die to become a WAM. It just is not possible for that to happen.

In my couple of months of starting to coin collect I have never heard more entitlement in my life. I ask a question about a concept that might exist and all I have been getting is answers that are either blatantly attempting me to make me feel stupid or actual answers that actually teaching me what and what isn’t true in the numismatic world. I understand that this “die pooling” is a brand new term to you guys but this is something I merely observed… not something I’m running with. I already concluded at this point that this is indeed a WAM and I don’t need to know how many years of experience you have to solidify this fact that you “know so much” 

im brand new at this. Ever heard of common decency? Just tell me what I said doesn’t exist and move on! I don’t need your whole life story 😭😭

On 3/22/2024 at 12:14 AM, Just Bob said:

OP, would you please explain what you mean by "pooling of die?"

Your coin is definitely not a "close AM," by the way. The gap between the letters is too wide, and the position of the designer's initials and shape of the "G" are unmistakable indicators of a "wide AM" variety.

what I meant by pooling of die is that you see how the point toward the end of the A is rounded? That is what I mean. It isn't pointed like the rest, hence my observation. But in either case I see your point and have concluded that this is indeed a WAM and will not look further into it. Thank you for asking me a legit clarifying question I was very happy to answer

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  The OP says, Ever hear of common decency? after having dismissively referred to members weighing in, as schmucks. Interesting thread. What's the deal with "die pooling?" 

Q.A.:  I guess it's on a par with "continental drift." One thing I don't believe I have ever done here is resort to using personal insults. I loved the High Horse!  

[Mustacheman]

On 3/22/2024 at 9:50 AM, Henri Charriere said:

🐓:  The OP says, Ever hear of common decency? after having dismissively referred to members weighing in, as schmucks. Interesting thread. What's the deal with "die pooling?" 

Q.A.:  I guess it's on a par with "continental drift." One thing I don't believe I have ever done here is resort to using personal insults. I loved the High Horse!  

some weight alright. A little overweight if you ask me 😭😭

[RonnieR131]

 A WAM, from a mile away.

[Mike Meenderink]

And...END SCENE

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:16 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

And...END SCENE

Man, I love this place but sure do miss my guest moderator gig!      

[J P M]

Welcome Mustacheman..The coin you are trying to find is one of the rarest of the WAM + CAM cents the other is the 1999 wam. The members here have seen many posts on these coins from new members and are only trying to help. Almost everyone starts out looking to find error coins and it is no easy task. I roll hunt all the time and I can say in 60 years I have never found a coin in pocket change worth any more than a few bucks. I still look for nice BU coins for my coin folders and sometimes I get lucky but never rich. Here are two WAM coins the easier ones to find. Ya right   

[Just Bob]

On 3/22/2024 at 9:35 AM, Mustacheman said:

 

😭😭

what I meant by pooling of die is that you see how the point toward the end of the A is rounded? That is what I mean. It isn't pointed like the rest, hence my observation. 

(I couldn't figure out how to get rid of the two crying emojis when quoting your previous post, so that is why they are still there.)

I see what you are talking about with the right leg of the "A." That is likely the result of either die erosion - something that we might be able to determine if we had a clear picture of the entire reverse - or a tiny die chip. Either could cause the misshapen end of the letter. 

[powermad5000]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:10 PM, Mustacheman said:

This is true and this is the key indication that it is indeed a WAM. But I’m still so confused about that pooling of die leaning closer towards the M. It doesn’t make sense to me. Of course the machinery is not perfect to make what they want to make on the spot but could this has been a CLOSE that was turned to a WIDE? That is what I’m trying to have answered.

This is what I responded to. In my response, I did not give you my life story. I simply gave you an answer. Sorry you took offense to my response as condescending. I tried to explain it as I know is all.

[VKurtB]

I’ve decided that ANYONE who quickly resorts to calling others rude or condescending, DESERVES being responded to rudely and condescendingly. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:33 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve decided that ANYONE who quickly resorts to calling others rude or condescending, DESERVES being responded to rudely and condescendingly. 

Nope!  Can't do that. Yup, it's against the Guidelines. You may not respond in kind on the Chat Board. It's in the Scriptures... turn the other cheek.      

[VKurtB]

On 3/22/2024 at 5:50 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Nope!  Can't do that. Yup, it's against the Guidelines. You may not respond in kind on the Chat Board. It's in the Scriptures... turn the other cheek.      

Good for you. You do you. I’ll do me.

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:52 PM, VKurtB said:

Good for you. You do you. I’ll do me.

[Mustacheman]

On 3/22/2024 at 4:01 PM, powermad5000 said:

This is what I responded to. In my response, I did not give you my life story. I simply gave you an answer. Sorry you took offense to my response as condescending. I tried to explain it as I know is all.

I apologize for being confused on your intentions. A lot of people just bash you for being wrong or cocky. I wasn’t trying to be cocky but I was definitely wrong. I thought the expert I went to just didn’t have a good magnifying glass with him at the time hence why I thought what I saw and asked for other opinions. My bad my man. 

[Mustacheman]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:33 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve decided that ANYONE who quickly resorts to calling others rude or condescending, DESERVES being responded to rudely and condescendingly. 

I understand that but as you couldn’t already tell I’m green when it comes to things like this. I’m just now getting used to the fact you aren’t gonna pull a God tier coin every time you look at something that could be. It was a possibility. And why I acted like this in the first place was someone else basically attempted to question me for asking questions. Is that not fair to assume that I thought someone thought I was dumb for asking a question I could have answered myself? I would say yes and no… 

 

two sides of the same coin. Pun fully intended.