"Counterfeit Forgery" 1904 French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

For sale, presently, on the website of a prominent and reputable coin dealer in Europe, www.numiscorner.com (Le Comptoir Des Monnaies) is the above-described coin. Its condition is pegged at EF (40-45). The price is €500, which is about $538. Its weight is 6.33 gms. instead of the standard 6.45 gms. There is an unusually garish abrasion on Marianne's cheek [which I suspect was inflicted intentionally in an effort to determine its authenticity].  Every detail is impeccable: even the finess of its gold content, while off by 0.12 gm, is identical to a genuine coin: .90000000000000002. 

So we have a legitimate, highly-regarded dealer offering what they term is a "counterfeit forgery," with a comment:  "If you so wish, you can order a Certificate of Authenticity or grading for this collectible item after adding it to your cart."

Just when you thought you'd seen it all and heard it all, when you believed everything was tickety-boo, something out of left field leaves you gobsmacked.

I would be honored to acquire it but the anti-counterfeiting league on the Forum is strong, and I am weak. Malheureusement, there are no accommodations on the Set Registry for hits, runs, errors, varieties, proofs, essais, piedforts, oddities -- or genetic mutations.  🤣

 

Edited February 18 by Henri Charriere
Extensive die polishing.

[J P M]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:03 PM, Henri Charriere said:

For sale, presently, on the website of a prominent and reputable coin dealer in Europe, www.numiscorner.com is the above-referenced coin. Its condition is pegged at EF (40-45). The price is €500, which is about USD538. Its weight is 6.33 gms instead of the standard 6.45 gms. There is an unusually garish abrasion on Marianne's cheek [which I suspect was inflicted intentionally in an effort to determine its authenticity].  Every detail is impeccable: even the gold content, while off by 0.12 gm is identical to a genuine coin .9 [followed by 15 zeroes) 2.

So we have a legitimate, highly-regarded dealer offering what they term is a "counterfeit forgery," with a comment:  "If you so wish, you can order a certificate of authenticity or grading for this collectible item after adding it to your cart."

Just when you thought you'd seen it all and heard it all, when you believed everything was tickety-boo, something out of left field comes leaving you gobsmacked.

I would be honored to acquire it but the anti-counterfeiting league on the Forum is strong and I am weak. Malheuresment, there are no accommodations on the Set Registry for hits, runs, errors, varieties, proofs, essais, piedforts, oddities -- or genetic mutations.  🤣

 

If it looks ok, could the coin be from a thin planchet or is there no tolerance for gold being underweight 

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:13 PM, J P M said:

If it looks ok, could the coin be from a thin planchet or is there no tolerance for gold being underweight 

If that were the case for a U.S. coin, would we condemn it as a counterfeit forgery?  Millions of gold roosters were melted and there have been reports of known examples of counterfeits being detected but this is a complete mystery. If you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. One can barely see the edge lettering which is decorative with high relief and presumably difficult to reproduce faithfully.  

[RWB]

"Forgery" is usually reserved for documents and signatures. "Counterfeit" can refer to any non-authentic item.

The European dealer's comment indicates its status as "counterfeit reputable."

[EagleRJO]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:03 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I would be honored to acquire it ... 

Why would you want a significantly underweight (for gold) coin described as a "counterfeit"?  And how would you legally sell it in this country once acquired?

[J P M]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:37 PM, RWB said:

"Forgery" is usually reserved for documents and signatures. "Counterfeit" can refer to any non-authentic item.

The European dealer's comment indicates its status as "counterfeit reputable."

So is that fancy lingo for a restrike. counterfeit reputable.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:37 PM, RWB said:

"Forgery" is usually reserved for documents and signatures. "Counterfeit" can refer to any non-authentic item.

The European dealer's comment indicates its status as "counterfeit reputable."

If you can order a "Certificate of Authenticity or grading" for this, "if you so wish," that would appear to rule out it being non-authentic, no?

Edited February 18 by Henri Charriere
Rewording.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:42 PM, EagleRJO said:

Why would you want a significantly underweight (for gold) coin described as a "counterfeit"?  And how would you legally sell it in this country once acquired?

Significantly underweight?  A tenth of a gram?  I personally do not believe it to be counterfeit.   But if it is, it is exceedingly rare. When's the last time you saw a Henning nickel for sale?  I want something no one else has. The '33 DE is spoken for as are a number of other "unique" coins.  Sell?  If powermad5000 has his way, there won't be any sale.  🤣

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:45 PM, J P M said:

So is that fancy lingo for a restrike. counterfeit reputable.

Not a restrike. It's an original.  I use a term our Just Bob dislikes: genuine counterfeit.  I believe it to be the work of an ex-Mint employee and the discrepancy in weight may be due to the facial injury it suffered which is identical to what you would expect to find when a glacial mass retreats. New York's Central Park is riddled with large rocks and boulders bearing identical striated scarring.

[powermad5000]

You can order your own grading by submitting it to NGC. But, NGC does not certify coins unless they are genuine. I am really confused as to what the seller means by that statement upon purchase. What would the certificate say, "Fake"? "Not genuine"? "Replica"? "Copy"? Also, how would this be "graded"? Excellent counterfeit? And who would issue this certificate or statement of grade??? I am just very befuddled by what that really means. I guess you would need to ask the seller for clarification. Also, maybe ask the seller for a better picture of the edge for the lettering which may provide some additional information about this particular specimen.

I am just unsure as to why you would want to purchase such said item, but then again I wonder many things in this hobby and know just because I would have zero interest in it that someone else might be passionate about it. To each his own!

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

I would not hesitate to add a contemporary counterfeit to my collection, it adds to the overall narrative of a series and depth to a collection imo. 

The coin in question appears to be weakly struck in places and has an abundance of what look like raised lines in the fields on both sides. I've not viewed many coins from this series but I can say that the few I have did not have those attributes. I'm a little skeptical that it is a counterfeit having an identical composition as an authentic piece and nearly the same weight but... 

[Henri Charriere]

@ @powermad5000 :  You are too kind!  The unusual listing -- when's the last time SB or HA auctioned off a counterfeit? -- raises many more questions than it answers. What happened to your vow to destroy any counterfeit? The poor condition of the coin, unlike and contemporary counterfeit I am aware of, would deter the average collector. It is grossly unattractive, the entire series was demonetized in 1928, and for all practical reasons, is in no condition to be sold to anyone.  Oddly, a dual listing for the company, Le Comptoir Des Monnaies, lists this coin for $650. though they are open to the Or Best Offer (OBO) option. Their adjectival grade, EF, to me is debatable. A fairer price would be little more than spot which hovers at $378.37 as of this writing.

Edited February 18 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing.

[EagleRJO]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:56 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Significantly underweight?  A tenth of a gram?

Yes.  The Paris Mint who struck the coins were not hacks, and a comparable gold coin from the US Mint would have a weight tolerance less than two hundreds of a gram.  I would do more research on the tolerances.

P.S.  Significantly underweight in terms of the quality of the piece, not the value of the metal.

Edited February 18 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:23 AM, EagleRJO said:

Yes.  The Paris Mint who struck the coins were not hacks, and a comparable gold coin from the US Mint would have a weight tolerance less than two hundreds of a gram.  I would do more research on the tolerances.

That won't be necessary.  Les etoiles dans mes yeux ont disparu.  The stars in my eyes are gone. No Sale!

[RWB]

Half eagle - +/-0.25 grain (not gram).

Was channel surfing last night and stopped on one of those crooked jewelry shows. The shill was claiming that a $999.99 necklace had "over 2 grams of platinum in it" and that "platinum was selling for over $500 per gram." What a whopper of a lie, trumps even a penthouse. Platinum is under $1,000 per Troy ounce and under $30 per gram.

Edited February 18 by RWB

[RWB]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:45 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Les etoiles dans mes yeux ont disparu.

Maybe you got cataracts or floaters.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:46 AM, RWB said:

Maybe you got cataracts or floaters.

I do!  And macular generation with a suggestion of Fuch's corneal dystrophy.  I guess you could say I am flying blind.

[RWB]

Cataract surgery often helps. If not then endothelial keratoplasty might be warranted. Looking at MS-68 Roosters will not help.

[powermad5000]

Not to worry. I hardly if ever get my way   And I am not the coin police. 

Edited February 20 by powermad5000

[Henri Charriere]

POSTSCRIPT:

To those of you who have endured many a sleepness night wondering about the Final Disposition of the 1904 "Counterfeit Forgery," your worries are over.  The coin has since been sold by NumisCorner in France for €500 or the equivalent of roughly USD 540.

Edited March 2 by Henri Charriere
Add one zero.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:42 PM, EagleRJO said:

Why would you want a significantly underweight (for gold) coin described as a "counterfeit"?  And how would you legally sell it in this country once acquired?

In all fairness, I transcribed the figure for weight correctly, but read it incorrectly.  A genuine gold rooster weighs 6.45 grams. This one weighed in at 6.33 grams, or a difference of not 12 tenths, but 12 hundredths of a gram. (I attribute the weight loss to damage inflicted on the coin by a succession of potential buyers in a series of clumsy efforts to determine its authencity, hence the garish mark on Marianne's cheek on the obverse as well as lesser abrasions on the reverse. That it found a buyer at that inflated price, $540. (Gold Rooster melt is about $380.) is nothing less than remarkable.

[EagleRJO]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:57 PM, Henri Charriere said:

A genuine gold rooster weighs 6.45 grams. This one weighed in at 6.33 grams, or a difference of not 12 tenths, but 12 hundredths of a gram

I think you had it right originally which was described as "off by 0.12 gm", which is a little more than a tenth of a gram.  That is still "significant" given the much tighter mint tolerances for such coins.

I am curious if you thought given the dealer description that the coin was a contemporary counterfeit by a particular individual which might make it collectible, similar to Henning nickels.  Otherwise it would just be a counterfeit only worth melt value if real gold.