would you let ncs clean a old coin? 1 1

[Midwest Dozer]

would you let someone clean a 1949 S ms 67+ top pop 1 of 3 ?

[Greenstang]

This is the forum for registered sets, you should have posted this in the newbie forum.   
Have asked that it be moved to the appropriate forum.

Why would you want to clean a top pop? You could ruin by trying to clean it.      
Not only that, you would have to remove from its holder and pay to get it regraded.   
Also NCS does not clean coins, they conserve them, a big difference.

Edited January 21 by Greenstang

[Midwest Dozer]

what is it with this site im starting to think there is a ton of rude people.... i think  instead of treating people in this manner it would go alot better and farther if people help someone  ..... and i did post ncs   to do their work if using chemicals to conserve a coin isnt cleaning them that wow.. i would never do it but i thought i would ask the community if they would.. it's one of three in the world so why would i ever  destroy a piece of history 

[powermad5000]

I am failing to see here where anyone was rude.

NCS is a company that provides a service to conserve coins, which is a process to remove harmful surface issues and stabilize the surface of a coin. It is much different from "cleaning" a coin which for the most part is done in a manner that is improper and does damage to the surface of the coin.

Whether or not the coin is a top pop, it depends on why you are asking the question in the first place. Is it to simply approve the appearance? Is it to try to remove unattractive toning? Or is it to help with a surface issue such as a developing corrosion spot? NCS conservation can improve the appearance of a coin to a degree, but is not a magic wand to make the coin look like it was just minted. What I am trying to get at is that toning in and of itself is a surface condition that can be removed, but if removed, it may expose underlying surface issues which can affect the grade. Your MS 67 after conservation may only grade as an MS 66 following the conservation. As an example, I sent a Morgan dollar to NCS that has some not so good looking black spotty toning and that coin was returned to me by NCS with the explanation that conservation would lower the grade and not be a good thing for the coin as it sits.

Imho, NCS conservation is for coins that are developing some type of impairment or issue which if left unchecked could further damage the coin even as it sits in slab.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:04 AM, Midwest Dozer said:

would you let someone [NCS] clean [conserve] a 1949 S ms 67+ top pop 1 of 3 ... it's one of three in the world

No, not unless the coin would continue to deteriorate even if just left alone.

On 1/21/2024 at 10:33 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

im starting to think there is a ton of rude people

There are a few that occasionally post some rude stuff, like just about any other internet forum.  But Greenstang generally isn't one of them, and I think he may have just misread your post that you were considering having someone you know "clean" the coin.

You absolutely could ruin the coin trying to "clean" it, which would definitely not be a wise thing to attempt.  And NCS doesn't "clean" coins, they only "conserve" them which I think is the disconnect.

On 1/22/2024 at 12:23 AM, powermad5000 said:

[conserving] may expose underlying surface issues which can affect the grade. Your MS 67 after conservation may only grade as an MS 66

Not only can it affect the grade, but it can result in what would otherwise be a straight graded coin getting a Details grade or possibly being sent back in a body bag.

Sometimes there is really no way to tell if issues like that could be uncovered as a result of conserving a coin, and I believe the disclaimers for the service state that.  There have been a few topics here over the years where conservation was requested or recommended which ended with a Details grade and an unhappy collector.

That's why I agree with PM about not conserving a coin unless it would continue to deteriorate even if just left alone.

Edited January 23 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   As the coin was presumably already graded MS 67+ by a reputable grading service, why do you believe that it would benefit from conservation? Unless the coin has markedly deteriorated since it was encapsulated, it should not require conservation. Photos would be helpful.

   If you submit a coin to NGC and request NCS conservation, NCS will determine whether the coin might benefit from it and proceed only upon determining that conservation would be beneficial. If they don't, there will be a $5 fee, and the coin will be transferred to NGC for grading.  The full NCS fee applies only it NCS determines that the coin might benefit. See Coin Conservation | NCS | Numismatic Conservation Services | NGC (ngccoin.com) (FAQs). 

[VKurtB]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:33 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

what is it with this site im starting to think there is a ton of rude people.... i think  instead of treating people in this manner it would go alot better and farther if people help someone  ..... and i did post ncs   to do their work if using chemicals to conserve a coin isnt cleaning them that wow.. i would never do it but i thought i would ask the community if they would.. it's one of three in the world so why would i ever  destroy a piece of history 

Wanna know what’s REALLY rude? Insisting your question be answered on your terms without further question or clarification. Now THAT’S rude!

[Midwest Dozer]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:04 AM, EagleRJO said:

No, not unless the coin would continue to deteriorate even if just left alone.

There are a few that occasionally post some rude stuff, like just about any other internet forum.  But Greenstang generally isn't one of them, and I think he may have just misread your post that you were considering having someone you know "clean" the coin.

You absolutely could ruin the coin trying to "clean" it, which would definitely not be a wise thing to attempt.  And NCS doesn't "clean" coins, they only "conserve" them which I think is the disconnect.

Not only can it affect the grade, but it can result in what would otherwise be a straight graded coin getting a Details grade or possibly being sent back in a body bag.

Sometimes there is really no way to tell if issues like that could be uncovered as a result of conserving a coin, and I believe the disclaimers for the service state that.  There have been a few topics here over the years where conservation was requested or recommended which ended with a Details grade and an unhappy collector.

That's why I agree with PM about not conserving a coin unless it would continue to deteriorate even if just left alone.

thank you for that information it was extremely helpful.  i bought it sight unseen so i thought id ask the community their opinion. didnt know it would lead to all this 

[cobymordet]

Midwest, I read a lot of the posts on this forum and have posted a few myself.  I have noticed that how a question is presented is the key ingredient in determining the type of responses likely to be received.  Your initial question was very short and slightly vague.  Although a three volume historical accounting isn't required, a bit of backstory can be helpful in determining the context of your intent.  Without that context, the information you actually want is not addressed.  The written word can be misinterpreted quite easily without context. 

On 1/20/2024 at 11:04 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

would you let someone clean a 1949 S ms 67+ top pop 1 of 3 ?

This inquiry indicates that the coin in question is graded and you are considering having it cleaned.  That is not your intent, it isn't really even the question you want answered.  When an experienced collector sees this question, an automatic, muscle-memory response is "NO!", then "WHY?"  Not that it will make you feel better, but I have posted a question or two and received a much less friendly response.  In hindsight, I realized I deserved my response.  After having read thousands of posts, I have come to the conclusion that this forum will provide you informed and accurate information, unfortunately there will be no coating of sugar or caressing of the hand.  The band-aid will be ripped off on 1 of a count to 3.  As with any online forum, there are individuals to steer clear of and those to pay closer attention to.  The bottom line for me is that I get the information I want/need

[EagleRJO]

On 1/22/2024 at 2:58 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

i bought it sight unseen so i thought id ask the community their opinion. didnt know it would lead to all this 

I think using correct terminology is important to avoid misunderstandings or confusion, and partially why I wrote the topic pinned at the top of this sub-forum.  In the end a topic with good information on potential pitfalls of trying to clean or conserve a coin which newer collectors really need to understand.

[ldhair]

"would you let ncs clean a old coin?"

Yes. 

[Midwest Dozer]

well i wish i would have tested the waters before i threw that question out their..  and apparently dont say cleaned in a sentence.. i really wish they NGC would have taken a picture of the coin while they had it. maybe it was graded back in the day but i dont know  feel free to look the coin up ive been searching for pictures of it. i did email them and got the slab number. number as follows 6529202-005 i can do that i added it to my set already without pictures..  

[“”]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:31 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

well i wish i would have tested the waters before i threw that question out their..  and apparently dont say cleaned in a sentence.. i really wish they NGC would have taken a picture of the coin while they had it. maybe it was graded back in the day but i dont know  feel free to look the coin up ive been searching for pictures of it. i did email them and got the slab number. number as follows 6529202-005 i can do that i added it to my set already without pictures..  

 

[VKurtB]

Here’s the problem with the OP’s question: this coin will not benefit from “cleaning”, by NCS or anyone else. There are not contaminants on this coin that NCS can remove. The marks on this coin are silver sulfides, in other words, toning. All normal ways of remediating toning are likely to REDUCE the grade of this coin. So the answer is, “DON’T DO IT!”

[Sandon]

   The certification number you provided and the holder and label styles shown in the photos posted by @Simple Collector indicate that the coin would have been submitted to NGC within approximately the last two years. It is highly unlikely that the coin's appearance has changed since NGC graded it.  NGC certification verification correctly identifies the coin as a 1949-S Franklin half dollar graded MS 67+, which is the highest grade that NGC has awarded that issue. NGC mistakenly failed to include images of the coin, which happens from time to time.  

   The yellowish-brown toning on the coin suggests that it was stored in the cardboard packaging of a 1949 mint set or a similar chemically reactive holder. Some collectors seek out coins from the 1947-58 era with such "mint set toning", and grading services may award them higher grades than fully brilliant pieces with equivalent qualities of surface preservation, luster and strike. Others, like me, find this "tarnish-type" toning unattractive and do not buy such pieces. The removal of the toning by "dipping", even by a professional, would likely lower the grade of the coin.

   You stated that you had bought the coin sight unseen. In my opinion, this is a bad idea even if you only buy coins certified by top-tier grading services. Such coins may vary widely in appearance within the same grade, and some may not be to your taste. If all you were interested in was getting the maximum number of registry set points for this issue, you succeeded. However, if you are trying to acquire coins that you find pleasing, you should reconsider your approach.

[Midwest Dozer]

thank you for the picture Simple Collector. i like the way it looks and wont change one thing about it. it matches my 48-p ddr fbl, my 49-p fbl and my 52-p fbl all 66 if i remember correctly. ive been working on building a fairly nice set and this one came about. thanks again for the picture. boy every time i look at that specimen its perfect the way it is... 

[Halbrook Family]

Sorry to get off the subject a bit but how does one get better at grading raw coins? The coin is not in my hands and I don't mean to knock this nice coin but if I saw this coin like this I would blow it off as a cleaned coin just from the marks going up on right side and the marls near his hair on left side. I'd love to be able to be able to pick some raw coins out that would be a Somewhat good graded coin. Does it just come with time or what? Do I have any coins in my junk pile that should have been in a capsule? Frustrating a bit. I have only been at it a few years. 

[Midwest Dozer]

those marks you are seeing on the coin are die marks. maybe where they touched up the die from striking or maybe those marks are from a brand new die pair never the less. NGC is the most pickiest grading company out their and if the two or three people that grade these coins thought for a second it was cleaned it would not even be in this holder.. it wouldn't even have a grade.  

[EagleRJO]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:18 AM, Midwest Dozer said:

NGC is the most pickiest grading company out their and if the two or three people that grade these coins thought for a second it was cleaned it would not even be in this holder.. it wouldn't even have a grade.

I see NGC holders with Details - Cleaned all the time.  Which coins have you submitted that came back in a body bag which were just cleaned, and not otherwise damaged.  And I think it's a good thing they look very carefully at coins, including signs of cleaning as that gives me added confidence in the more valuable coins I have in NGC holders.  Sometime I look at coins in the lower tier TPG holders and just shake my head.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/details-grading/

[VKurtB]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:18 AM, Midwest Dozer said:

those marks you are seeing on the coin are die marks. maybe where they touched up the die from striking or maybe those marks are from a brand new die pair never the less. NGC is the most pickiest grading company out their and if the two or three people that grade these coins thought for a second it was cleaned it would not even be in this holder.. it wouldn't even have a grade.  

There are no “die marks” on the above coin. It is toning likely caused by the cardboard and paper insert in a double uncirculated set.

Edited January 26 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

Getting good at self grading takes A LOT of time, and the viewing of A LOT of coins. There are basic grading rules regarding wear that apply to any coin, but some series have their own nuances and to effectively grade coins in that particular series you have to read up about it. If your surface is original = not junk. Toning necessarily does not = junk as long as the surfaces are original.

I have been honing my self grading for as long as I have been collecting (45+ years) and even sometimes something gets by my eye and I get a submission back that I need to take a harder look at something.

[Halbrook Family]

How do you really tell if a coin is cleaned? Putting a coin in accetone would not mean its cleaned? If one wears a white glove and touches the top of a coin will that leave a mark? I have been pretty lucky so far as i know handling my coins. Accidently sctatched a silver quarter. My main question is how to tell if coin has been cleaned

[Sandon]

On 1/26/2024 at 1:31 PM, edhalbrook said:

How do you really tell if a coin is cleaned?

    This is a complex and controversial subject that should be taken up as a separate topic. For an overview and examples of coins from my collection that exhibit various forms of "cleaning", see Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com).

[JKK]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:18 AM, Midwest Dozer said:

those marks you are seeing on the coin are die marks. maybe where they touched up the die from striking or maybe those marks are from a brand new die pair never the less. NGC is the most pickiest grading company out their and if the two or three people that grade these coins thought for a second it was cleaned it would not even be in this holder.. it wouldn't even have a grade.  

"Die marks?" Not only do you have a lot to do in order to stop seeing rudeness when none is offered, but you also could benefit from some better understanding of terminology. If you mean die polishing lines (those are not), then it's fine to say so (provided you know what you're saying). You can say "cleaned" in a sentence all you want, but if you are incorrect, people will correct you. There is no fundamental right not to be called out on errors in description.

As for the 49-S Frank that was posted, while I am not a worshipper of grading services, the fact that NGC slabbed it clean as 67+ tells me that whatever those discolorations are, they aren't from cleaning--you're right, at least, on that aspect. What they are, I can't say from the pics, but I agree on what they are not. I'd take that grade and stand pat on it--and I agree with others that this would not benefit from NCS "conservation." (I'm among the cynics about that part. I'm not supposed to be, but I've never been much vulnerable to peer pressure.)

[Midwest Dozer]

if someone could help me take down this post it would be awesome..... il keep my stupid questions to myself.. thanks  

[J P M]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:15 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

if someone could help me take down this post it would be awesome..... il keep my stupid questions to myself.. thanks  

No questions are stupid it is how we learn. I have been around a long time, and I find new information every day because someone asked a question. 

[“”]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:50 AM, J P M said:

No questions are stupid it is how we learn. I have been around a long time, and I find new information every day because someone asked a question. 

It can sure seem they’re stupid around here more often than necessary based on some responses. That gets followed by explanations of excuses as to why said responses weren’t really meant to be rude acknowledging pretty much that they are / were.

I understand there are trolls and bad posts and people in general who don’t care about our hobby. But I also believe if we wish our hobby to be sustained we need to be a little more careful with those “newbies” who have a genuine interest. Perhaps we need to show a little more patience and understanding that no they don’t know all the correct terminology or nuances of our hobby and we need to help them learn in a more positive way.

 

[EagleRJO]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:15 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

if someone could help me take down this post it would be awesome..... il keep my stupid questions to myself.. thanks  

You can't "take down" or delete a topic or individual posts, you can only edit your posts.  And I don't think it was a stupid question at all, just poorly worded initially.  The topics of cleaning or conserving older coins are important ones for newer collectors to understand.

Edited January 27 by EagleRJO

[Halbrook Family]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:52 PM, Sandon said:

    This is a complex and controversial subject that should be taken up as a separate topic. For an overview and examples of coins from my collection that exhibit various forms of "cleaning", see Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com).

That is some amazing collection. None of the coins I look at are that old. Washington quarters I'm working on now as well as Merc dimes. 

[Midwest Dozer]

i just started a few years ago. im not sure if ive done any good as far as collecting. im sure ive waisted plenty of money on things of no value.

i bought a collection from a estate awhile back, probably gave way to much for it. this is some of it  i haven't went through everything yet.

i just bought those the other day, i haven't seen any this nice at all. 1965,66,and67