Glynn K. Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 I got this 1978 D quarter in change many years ago and decided it was some sort of planchet error. Looks to me like insufficient clad stuff on reverse and obverse. Anybody have any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) It would be hard to say being in that 2x2 we cannot see if there is any transgression from copper to clad. Even if you removed it and took some better shots it would still be hard to see. It just looks like staining. Edited January 19 by J P M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 thanks for the quick reply. It's an incredibly thin planchet over all but thicker where you see the copper nickel. All the features are clear and distinct even where the planchet is thin, although a tad weaker on the bronze only part. I doubt a coin star would take it. I guess it could have had an acid bath or some such but it definitely appears to be the color of the "meat that's in the sandwich" and is about that thickness, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RWB Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 From this cropped and rotated version, it resembles paint or stain that someone tried to remove from the quarter. Note the stain's absence from some high points but presence in most low spots. EagleRJO, JT2 and Henri Charriere 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 (edited) that could be but wouldn't really explain why the planchet is so thin without boogering up the design. I appreciate your input! I was hoping it would be worth about a million bucks so I could set up a trust or some such. But que sera sera. I wish I had found this forum years ago! Edited January 20 by Glynn K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 The coloring is not US Mint related, so it is not an error. Estimated value = 25-cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 Poot. I hate it when that happens. And to think it's lost a lot purchasing value since I took it out of circulation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 See https://www.error-ref.com/?s=missing+clad+layer for photos and descriptions of coins that were actually minted with part or all of the cladding layer missing. None of them resembles this coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 Well, not that I am questioning a greater authority, but actually the color DOES resemble, and there is one that resembles it more than a little, though mine has more copper color showing. Probably will be disappointed but I might send the thing to an expert just for fun. Might cost a few bucks but at this point it will just come out of what my children will otherwise inherit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Glynn.. it was brought up on a previous post that according to…. https://www.pcgs.com/news/missing-clad-layer-mint-error-coins#:~:text=A full missing-clad-layer coin will have no clad,the most common type of missing clad layer. one side missing clad layer would have appox 15% weight drop from a standard. Just a newbie here trying to help another newbie. If you have a decent small scale you could do a quick check before getting your hopes up more. These guys are good here though giving you advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) IMO that is a coin that has been exposed to a corrosive or acid. The time spent in contact with the corrosive dissolved the thinnest parts of the clad layer first and was working on the thicker areas, but the coin was removed from the corrosive prior to the entire clad layer being dissolved. Thats why it is light the metal has been dissolved away. Mystery solved. It's a kids science lab coin. Worth face value. Edited January 20 by Mike Meenderink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) There is a blotchy and very thin appearance of the exposed layer, whether that is a coating or cladding, with an off brown color that doesn't really look like copper in mostly lower relief areas. It is also very unlikely to have a loss of cladding on both sides of a coin from a mint error, and it doesnt have the really mushy appearance of an acid reduced clad coin that completely eats away normal cladding. See the linked PCG$ and error-ref.com articles which discusses these things. That combined with a somewhat granular surface, which looks a little like a coin exposed to something like a weak acid, leads me to believe it's a painted or coated coin with that outer layer removed by wear and exposure to a weak corrosive. If you weigh the coin on a calibrated scale with an 0.01g accuracy it likely would weigh about what a regular quarter for that year would be at about 5.67g, or possibly slightly over to account for the paint or coating. That or there was very thin cladding layers on both sides of a coin exposed to a [very weak] acid, although there would be almost no chance of that so it would then likely be a very thin out of spec planchet which was painted. https://www.pcgs.com/news/missing-clad-layer-mint-error-coins https://www.error-ref.com/acid-shrunk-coins/ Edited January 20 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) Please see and take the pledge. https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/432522-hold-up-your-right-hand-and-repeat-after-me/ Edited January 20 by RWB Glynn K. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) On 1/19/2024 at 5:45 PM, EagleRJO said: There is a blotchy and very thin appearance of the exposed layer, whether that is a coating or cladding, with an off brown color that doesn't really look like copper in mostly lower relief areas. It is also very unlikely to have a loss of cladding on both sides of a coin from a mint error, and it doesnt have the really mushy appearance of an acid reduced clad coin. See the linked PCG$ and error-ref.com articles which discusses these things. That combined with a somewhat granular surface, which looks a little like a coin exposed to something like a weak acid, leads me to believe it's a painted or coated coin with that outer layer removed by wear and exposure to a weak corrosive. If you weigh the coin on a calibrated scale with an 0.01g accuracy it likely would weigh about what a regular quarter for that year would be at about 5.67g, or possibly slightly over to account for the paint or coating. That or there was very thin cladding layers on both sides of a coin exposed to an acid, however unlikely it is to have that on both sides. https://www.pcgs.com/news/missing-clad-layer-mint-error-coins https://www.error-ref.com/acid-shrunk-coins/ PARROT one of my answers then object to my others. You sir have no credibility. Edited January 20 by Mike Meenderink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) Yea it's so unusual to agree with someone on one thing yet disagree on another. Just having a little fun with some of this, so lighten up, like I care what you think anyway. Edited January 20 by EagleRJO Glynn K. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 Thanks for all the responses, including the thinly veiled insult. I have no hopes up at all. Just an old guy who wishes he'd found this forum sooner. Even without a scale I can tell this thing weighs a lot less than a standard quarter. An acid bath is likely the answer but what the heck - it's only money. I have another one that is also most likely post issue damage but it didn't photograph as well. I realize I probably have not been as deep into the hobby as many of you who are younger than I am, but I have been at it (off and on) for about 65 years. Of course, to some that may not equal 65 years experience but one year of experience obtained 65 times. I think I will enjoy this site now that I've found it. I don't take myself seriously so I don't believe I will have anything but fun here. R__Rash 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 For an expert opinion without cost, you could show photos of the coin (preferably right side up and cropped) to Jon Sullivan, the respected errors dealer who wrote the article on the PCGS website linked by @Rob’s Coins. Go to https://sullivannumismatics.com/ and click "Contact Us" under the "Customer Service tab. If there are coin shows in this area, you could also show the coin to dealers at these shows, but many dealers are not very familiar with mint errors. You could also submit the coin to CONECA (the "Combined Organization of Numismatic Error Collectors of America") for examination for $10 plus shipping and insurance costs. Go to https://conecaonline.org/examination-services/ for instructions. Apparently, CONECA will have to examine photos of the coin through its forum before authorizing submission of the coin itself, so there may be no cost for this option either if based on the photos the coin doesn't appear to be a mint error. I do not recommend submission of this coin to a grading service, which would be quite expensive (at NGC $37 in nonrefundable grading and error attribution fees alone, plus a $10 order processing fee and $28 return shipping fee and your cost of shipping to NGC). If you do obtain another expert opinion that the coin is a mint error, such submission could be worthwhile. Glynn K. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 On 1/19/2024 at 9:29 PM, Glynn K. said: Even without a scale I can tell this thing weighs a lot less than a standard quarter. An acid bath is likely the answer but what the heck - it's only money. I dont think it's an acid bath coin where outer cladding is almost completely eroded as it doesn't have a very mushy appearance with just too much detail remaining. Attached is an example acid bath damaged clad quarter with the outer cladding almost completely gone from error-ref.com, where your coin would have even more damage if the core is becoming exposed. I would look at the edge of your coin to see if it has an "oreo cookie" like appearance similar to the attached as the copper core is more reactive to an acid giving the coin that appearance, but I doubt that is the case. Also, I would accurately weigh your coin to try and come up with more definitive answers before you waste any more time or money on it. On 1/19/2024 at 10:19 PM, Sandon said: If you do obtain another expert opinion that the coin is a mint error, such submission could be worthwhile. What mint error are you thinking this coin may have to make it worthwhile to get another expert opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) To me it looks like paint has been applied to the coin. If this were my coin, I would first weigh the coin. It should weigh 5.67 grams give or take a little and probably end up a little on the heavy side due to the layer of paint as already noted. If this coin's weight is on, you can dismiss the missing clad layer theory as if it were truly missing that much clad which is about 15% of the total weight I believe, this coin would weigh somewhere near 5 grams. If that total weight comes back as near normal, I would give the coin a dip in acetone and if it is paint, it should crack and eventually flake off leaving you with a normal quarter. Be careful with the acetone though and do that procedure in a well ventilated area and away from sparks or flame as acetone is a highly flammable chemical. Edited January 20 by powermad5000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) On 1/20/2024 at 1:46 AM, powermad5000 said: If this coin's weight is on, you can dismiss the missing clad layer theory as if it were truly missing that much clad which is about 15% of the total weight I believe, this coin would weigh somewhere near 5 grams Each clad layer is roughly 15% of the coin weight, so that would be 30% for both sides. But there is only roughly half the area affected between the two sides which would put it at about 5 grams if that's what you were getting at. But I don't think there is any shot it's the result of partial cladding loss or the result of acid damage completely removing cladding on both sides with that pattern and appearance (see attached for appearance of acid damaged coin). So if it does turn out to be under weight it would likely be a painted coin with a thinner than normal planchet. [Note that this could be a failed attempt to fake a missing cladding mint error by painting the coin a brown core like color and then partially removing that paint with like a weak corrosive or similar to give the appearance of peeling clad layers.] Edited January 23 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 On 1/19/2024 at 7:08 PM, Glynn K. said: It's an incredibly thin planchet over all but thicker where you see the copper nickel. If it is thicker where you see the copper than there would be something on the surface. If you send it in to be graded it will cost over $50 to put it in a holder? I would buy a scale first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 On 1/20/2024 at 12:15 AM, EagleRJO said: What mint error are you thinking this coin may have to make it worthwhile to get another expert opinion? I think that in all likelihood the coin has been altered or damaged and is not a mint error, but the topic author indicated that he intends to send the coin to an "expert" for an opinion, so I gave him some lower cost options to obtain such as opinion. The only possible error I think this coin could be is a partially missing clad layer on both sides of the coin, which I've never heard of, and I think would be highly unlikely to exist. However, if it were one, I assume that it would have significant market value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 (edited) gentlemen - I had some issues with my account all of a sudden and could not respond to anything. I sent a message to one of the people who posted in this thread and he could respond to me but I could not reply. But I could start a new message to him, to which he could reply but for me to reply back I had to start a new message. That appears to be fixed now. I am going to get the coin weighed and will post that. Tried to do it today but my local coin shop was closed and the one jeweler I went to said the only person who could weigh anything was out and would not be back until Monday. I found that odd. How hard can it be? Then I asked at one drugstore using the term "apothecary scale" which may be obsolete because the lady I spoke to looked at me like I was psychotic. So I explained what they were used for. She then said "No, we don't have anything like that." I know most of the things they do is just take pills out of big bottles and put them in little bottles but I figured any fully functioning drug store would have some kind of scale. I will get it done Monday. I have also joined CONECA at the suggestion of a poster and am planning to send this thing to them when I get all my ducks in a row. Maybe I will be out a few bucks for nothing but it's a hobby. So it's not nothing. I don't hunt, fish, or play golf so I figure the thousands I have saved by not doing that are well spent on numismatics. And I certainly have not overspent on that. I do not invest in coins, I collect. I invest in other things. And when I was buying coins (haven't done that in a while) I bought on the cheap side. I care not a whit for high grade common date coins in slabs, really don't care about uncirculated. Very good is good enough for me most of the time. F, VF, and XF are splendid if cheap enough. Particular interests have been (1) US Type set, with the bust dollar (1803) being a VG example with an obvious repaired hole and same for the Fugio sent (it's my type sent so I can do what I want with it); (2) US Philippine type set, including Culion Leper Colony coinage; (3) sales tax tokens;(4) foreign coins minted in the US using a book I bought in the early 70's as a starting place; (5) civil war tokens; (6) hard times tokens; (7) other tokens and (8) whatever strikes my fancy. I was pleased to have an article published in the ANA Journal several years ago; title Hadacol Man - Dudley LeBlanc. He had a token minted in the early 50's to promote his patent medicine. Obviously no flowing hair stuff and no gold of any sort. I did have 2 gold coins once, a 10 ducat Austrian (size of a US cent) I made into a necklace for upper management and a Mexican 2 pesos bought for bullion value and sold for that a few years later several years ago. Neither expensive at the time. My enjoyment is not just in getting stuff but learning something from it. But I still notice my change, which is where this 1978 quarter came from and I check Coinstar reject slots. Best thing I ever found was a 1944D Philippine 20 centavos XF maybe AU. I plan to visit these forums regularly. Edited January 23 by Glynn K. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 There are a lot of different ways to collect. Most US-based collectors start with US coins, naturally, and some never tire of those. I didn't get rid of my US collection, but neither am I adding much to it; I branched into world coins, then ancients and the Islamic world. Some people (including about half my club) mainly collect tokens. Or medals, or errors, etc. Since it's a hobby and we do it for fun, whatever is fun for you, you should do. I would say half of the new posters here have found damaged crapola that they consider to be Rare Mint Errors on which they will Make Bank. About a quarter are dealing with Bampaw's Collection, Bampaw having passed away bequeathing a large hoard of assorted, mishandled stuff that everyone in the family assumes will be Worth Thousands. Actual real collectors of coins of actual real value or interest, not so common. So welcome. And small digital scales are very affordable, and well worth your money. You don't need to depend on jewelers for accurate weight measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarr Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 The coin was subjected to a rather strong nitric acid solution. Mike Meenderink 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Looks like paint to me. If it had been subjected to an acid and the clad layer removed, especially to the point that the thickness reduced, the design would be much less clearly defined, and the surfaces would have a pebbly texture. I see none of that in the photos. @Glynn K. please post a photo of the edge, that will confirm or refute the acid theory being suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glynn K. Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 fellow numismatists - here are (I hope) some better pics of the 1978 quarter, obverse, reverse, and edge (with edge compared to regular quarter), and obverse of another quarter I got from change that shows a cracked planchet. The edge of the 1978 does have reeding all the way around. Taking this picture, though, I notice the diameter of the 1978 is a hair shy of the diameter of the regular quarter. Never noticed that before. You can see how thin the 1978 is compared to the regular quarter, too. I did not have it weighed yet - I took another poster's advice and ordered a digital scale for about $16. A man can't have too many toys. It should be here in a few days and I will post the weight then. I appreciate any and all input, including the occasional snark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) On 1/20/2024 at 3:09 AM, EagleRJO said: I don't think there is any shot it's the result of partial cladding loss or the result of acid damage completely removing cladding on both sides with that pattern and appearance (see attached for appearance of acid damaged coin) On 1/22/2024 at 8:42 PM, Glynn K. said: The edge of the 1978 does have reeding all the way around. Well that shoots down the theory it was exposed to an acid which resulted in the cladding being eaten away, as expected, since an acid bath would also eat away the reeded edge. On 1/22/2024 at 8:42 PM, Glynn K. said: ... edge compared to regular quarter ... I notice the diameter of the 1978 is a hair shy of the diameter of the regular quarter Since it seems thinner and has a smaller diameter compared to a regular quarter, without significant acid damage which can cause an "acid shrunk coin", I think there may be a chance it's struck on the wrong planchet, possibly on a foreign coin planchet. Maybe in addition to an accurate weight you could measure the thickness and diameter in millimeters. It still looks like someone painted or coated the coin, which would be a shame if it's a wrong planchet error since that would pretty much wipe out a lot of any extra value it may have had. Maybe you could also look to see if any of the discolored area may be flaking off, which appears to be happening. If the discolored area could be easily removed by say soaking the coin in acetone or something that may save the day if it turns out to be a planchet error. Also the additional photos you posted were not very helpful as they are out of focus and not cropped (like the attached). Maybe you could rest your hand on something while taking the pics, and then crop them before posting which improves the resolution they can be viewed at and allows one to zoom in on the coin without it getting blurry right away. Edited January 23 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarr Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 On 1/21/2024 at 9:52 AM, Coinbuf said: Looks like paint to me. If it had been subjected to an acid and the clad layer removed, especially to the point that the thickness reduced, the design would be much less clearly defined, and the surfaces would have a pebbly texture. I see none of that in the photos. @Glynn K. please post a photo of the edge, that will confirm or refute the acid theory being suggested. Nitric acid has the property that it eats away very evenly, preserving the coin's details while making it thinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Still waiting for the weight. While waiting for that, another pertinent question to which I do not have an answer to, but maybe someone does, was the Mint striking anything for foreign countries in 1978 that there would be an odd planchet out on the Mint floor for some reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
