Is this Columbus worth grading or is it terminal and not worth it? 1 1

[Bspy107]

So I’ve had a Columbus world fair set 1892-3 in flips for a decade. I bought them back in high school because they were black and super cool. Over the time nothing about the coin has changed and has just sat in a 2x2.
 

The color and luster has remained consistent. However, I just learned there is a thing that happens to silver and that it becomes terminal meaning it’s slowly deteriorating and is essentially damaged. 
 

So what do I got here a coin worth grading or just keeping as is and put it on display as a desk piece. 

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.

   The NGC Registry forum is for topics pertaining to the NGC Registry. Your topic would likely receive better attention if posted in the "Newbie Coin Collecting Questions" forum. The Administrator will likely move it there.

    If I take your question as to whether your 1893 Columbian commemorative half dollar "should be graded" literally, my answer would be that every coin you want to collect should be graded--by you, and to be successful as a collector, you must acquire the knowledge and skills to do so.  What you mean to ask is whether the coin is worth submitting to a third-party grading service such as NGC. In order to determine this, you also need to know how the grading service would likely evaluate the coin.

   Based on your photos--photos often being inadequate to determine a coin's grade--your coin is quite unlikely to be worth the cost of certification. I see a small amount of "rub" on Columbus's cheek and the ship's sails, which could lead to an "AU" grade or limit an "MS" (uncirculated) grade to its lower levels. I also see that the coin has hairlines on the fields on both sides, which would either reduce the grade or lead to the coin receiving a "Details" (non-numerical) grade as having been "cleaned". The coin also appears to be somewhat darkly toned and generally lacking in luster. Assuming that the coin would not be designated "cleaned", I predict a grade range of AU 58 to MS 62, whose range of retail (dealer selling price) values on the NGC Price Guide would be $26 to $52. Silver Commemoratives (1892-1954) | Price Guide & Values | NGC (ngccoin.com). The minimal "Economy" tier NGC grading fee would be $23, and, assuming that you have already paid the minimum $95 annual fee for submission privileges, your order would also be subject to a $10 processing fee, $28 return shipping fee, and the cost of shipping it to NGC. See NGC Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com). (It might be somewhat less expensive to submit it through a dealer but still not worth it.) The coin would have to achieve a minimum grade of MS 64 ($175 retail value) to be even arguably worth the cost of submission and even then not by itself.

   I happen to own an 1893 Columbian half dollar that NGC had graded MS 65 before I purchased it, whose photos (courtesy of Stacks Bowers Galleries) appear below. Note the full, sharp detail, relatively unmarked surfaces, and bright luster. The coin has a great deal of "flash" or "cartwheel" that can't be seen in the photos but which are an important element of the grade.

P.S.--Grading service holders do not prevent coins from "toning" over time, though they may slow it down. I recommend you move your coin to a better holder such as a capsule or hard plastic "snaptite". If the flip it is in is soft (vinyl), the polyvinyl chloride may have gotten onto the coin, which can damage it. If you see a green substance on the coin it should be soaked in a neutral solvent such as acetone to remove it.

   

Edited December 12, 2023 by Sandon
added postscript

[Coinbuf]

While maybe not quite terminal yet, that dark tone would likely not be considered as eye appealing to many collectors.   I agree with Sandon's assessment that the coin appears to have been wiped in the past, between that and the general overall condition, in my opinion this would be a very poor choice to spend the monies for grading.

[Bspy107]

Thanks Sandon for your analysis there isn’t any green fortunately. In the photos I posted is the new holder I recently took it out of the old flip it because it was ugly and looked like it had a tobacco smoke color to it. It is hard to tell in the photos as well but there is a high luster if this coin wasn’t as dark as it would most definitely shine. I noticed you said their is some rub on the cheeks and sail however, that’s just the light reflecting off the black the coin is that shiny. If you play with it in the light it is very jewel like. As for being cleaned I have no idea I bought these as they were and nothing much has changed so not sure if previous owner cleaned them or not just bought them from a local coin dealer. When you say “in the fields” do you mean the background? 

[EagleRJO]

For your 1893 50C Columbian commemorative coin even assuming what appears to be rub marks are just flip reflection, resulting in a low MS grade, the value would be under $100 so it wouldn't be worth submitting.  And those coins are known for typically becoming darkened.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/united-states/commemoratives/silver-commemoratives-1892-1954/19297/1893-columbian-50c-ms/?des=ms

[RWB]

This quote from the NGC description is wrong. NO proof Columbian halves were ever made. The first 100 were struck on smoothed planchets with a toggle press operated manually, then placed in numbered envelopes. The first coin was sold to Remington Typewriter Co. for $10,000 -- that coin is #1 and should be "the best there is." Engraver Barber confirmed they were not proof coins.

"The striking of these coins began with special proof issues on November 19th of 1892 to national fanfare."

[Sandon]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:23 PM, Bspy107 said:

When you say “in the fields” do you mean the background? 

    By the "fields" I mean the portions of the coin that don't have any of the design, letters, numbers or other features, which are struck up from recessed areas in the dies. These "blank" areas receive the most pressure during striking. There are numerous fine lines (hairline scratches) in the fields of your coin, which indicate that the coin was wiped or scrubbed with some object, which would either reduce its grade or if perceived as extensive enough be regarded as an abrasive "cleaning". There are remnants of the original frosty luster around the letters and stars, which further indicates that the coin has been wiped or scrubbed, likely in a misguided effort to remove toning as was common years ago.  This likely occurred long before you acquired the coin, which has since retoned.

On 12/12/2023 at 12:23 PM, Bspy107 said:

It is hard to tell in the photos as well but there is a high luster if this coin wasn’t as dark as it would most definitely shine. I noticed you said their is some rub on the cheeks and sail however, that’s just the light reflecting off the black the coin is that shiny. I

    Most uncirculated coins of this issue have a uniformly frosty luster, like the one whose photo I posted, and are not "shiny". See A Guide Book of United States Coins, Expanded Deluxe ("Mega Red") Seventh Edition at p 1117 (2021).  Some exceptional pieces are "prooflike", meaning that they have a somewhat mirrorlike finish. Based on the photos, which only show one angle and lighting intensity, your coin is neither frosty, except in the protected areas, nor prooflike; and the "shine" you see is likely due to the rubbing, which may have involved the use of silver polish and, if so, would definitely result in a designation of "cleaned" or "polished".  

    I suggest that you show the coin to experienced collectors and dealers at a coin show, coin shop, or coin club meeting for opinions based on in-person examination. You may also want to compare it with certified pieces that have been awarded uncirculated grades. You could also try posting head on (not angled) photos that are better cropped and lit, which might show us more. 

   I'm not sure whether you are already a collector or just happened to have this coin from your high school days. If you aren't currently a collector and want to become one, or if you want to learn more about grading or otherwise evaluating coins, let us know. We can direct you to the appropriate print and online resources.

[Bspy107]

I was into collecting back in high school I completed a modern set of pennies from roll hunting and tried filling out as many wheat penny’s as far as I could.  Even found a 1909 non v.d.b. so that was cool  even though it was practically just a date and outline of Lincoln. My step mom’s step dad then gave me some coins such as a Stone Mountain, couple Morgan’s, 64’ Kennedy, Indian cent, and some foreign stuff, and a red book of coins. 
 

I haven’t been collecting since but just got back into it as I finally can again. I just started a NGC nickel set you could probably find it in the Jefferson 1938- date but it’s just ms 65 and above. Then start a new set of something not sure yet. However, I plan on finishing the nickel set first then upgrading each coin to FS. 
 

So I want to get back into the hobby but it’s been awhile and I did most of it not knowing much in high school just found it fun to do. So if there are resources that could help me that would be awesome. Thanks Sandon. 

[VKurtB]

I still don’t have a 1893 Columbus to compare with my 1892 Columbus, which is a sweetheart of a coin. I’ll keep looking.

[Sandon]

   See the following forum topics for basic resources for collecting U.S. coins:

   It is also important to study actual coins and speak with experienced collectors and dealers, which you can do at such venues as coin shows and coin club meetings.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Agree, the coin looks wiped or worse, still, better than mine which was harshly cleaned by me! 🙄

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome to the forum and back to the hobby as well!

If the coin has special meaning to you, I am not sure if NCS would attempt to conserve the coin, and also, I am not sure if anybody on here knows if you can just send a coin to NCS and have it conserved without it being graded or slabbed. As I have all my coins slabbed, including those I send for conservation, maybe someone on here could answer that question. I do think it was previously cleaned at some point (I am sure long before you acquired it).

Sounds like you already have some collecting goals, so I wish you the best with the nickel set! There are a couple members on here who could possibly help you with advice on the nickels as they have some very impressive sets.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I still don’t have a 1893 Columbus to compare with my 1892 Columbus, which is a sweetheart of a coin. I’ll keep looking.

I recall searching high and wide over a considerable period of time to pick up the 1892 and 1893 50C Columbian commemorative coins in a raw BU grade that were a bright silver color.  A vast majority of them had a minor to significant dark discoloration, with a bunch that were cleaned and a few counterfeits sprinkled in.  I was actually surprised at the counterfeits considering they are not very valuable coins.

[Bspy107]

Thanks Sandon for the information I’ll give it a look over should be fun. Also do you recommend getting a red book I remember finding lots of cool stuff in there. However, not sure if it’s a good resource nowadays or not since the internet exists with so much info. (Edit: just went though your article and that’s literally the first thing you talk about haha. I’ll wait and pick up a 2024 book since the year is almost over.) 
 

Powermad5000 yea it would be nice if they would slab them I wouldn’t sell them but I know eventually they would so I could see why NGC wouldn’t. They have a business of preserving top tier coins. But honestly I think these coins would look awesome in a pre 2008 style era slab black coin on white background or even first slabs ever with the black on black would make the coin an awesome display piece. For the nickel set it’s coming along getting some fantastic deals right now seems not many people are into nickels and the prices are quite low. Picked up 24 nickels so far around half the suggested price of NGC. Grabbing lots of 5FS and MS66 and MS67 coins for around $20. So feel pretty lucky however there are some coins like the 1942s I can’t seem to find so the hunt is on. 
 

EagleRJO now you make me want to go and grab the two BU coins from my shop. I have to double check to look to see if there are any marks from cleaning but they are bright and just sit in the display case. Nobody seems to want them either and they are only $22 bucks so seems kinda like a steal of a deal for those coins. I never really knew how rare they were to find in a silvery condition and when I first saw them at my current shop I was like eww those are ugly haha. I don’t know why but these Columbus coins just look better dark. But kinda want a set that isn’t deemed numismatically damaged after learning about my coins being cleaned and terminal. 
 

Thanks everyone 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Bspy107

[Halbrook Family]

My nickel collection is almost done. I didn't go for the slabbed ones but I'm having a hard time getting 42D. The two 2020 w nickels will be a bit more money $30 each graded. and the botanic garden 1997 one is also a bit more money. Maybe $150 or so. Seen it as high as $550. 2005 - 2010 uncirculated nickels have a satin finish vs the business strike coins. Both are pretty cheap though. Other nickels to look out for is the 1994 P which came in the Jefferson Coin & Currency set. It has a different matte finish. $40 for a sp69 to $150 for a sp70. 2018 s Reverse nickel is another one. Also 2017 s which only came in the 225th anniversary enhanced set. I thought the 1970's to 1983 PD coins took a bit more work to get good coins was a bit harder. I'm still trying to get 1983 P & D. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by edhalbrook

[Bspy107]

edhalbrook - yea I picked up a MS66 42’ D and normally I wouldn’t pay $45 for a nickel but I couldn’t say no to this 42’D. Now if I could only find a 42’ S reasonably priced and looks just as good I’ll pick it up but the 42’S seems to be going for more than the NGC suggested price at the moment so just gonna wait to find the right coin for me. 
 

Currently I’m mostly filling out 1938-64 with some exceptions to some newer coins. It really just comes down to the price is right for me and if I like the coin or not. But didn’t realize there was so much going on with the modern nickels. I knew there was design changes but seems like there gonna be a lot of reading up on modern nickels for me. Is there any resources to go over to help guide me though the modern nickels? 

[VKurtB]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:29 AM, EagleRJO said:

I recall searching high and wide over a considerable period of time to pick up the 1892 and 1893 50C Columbian commemorative coins in a raw BU grade that were a bright silver color.  A vast majority of them had a minor to significant dark discoloration, with a bunch that were cleaned and a few counterfeits sprinkled in.  I was actually surprised at the counterfeits considering they are not very valuable coins.

For a late 19th century coin that was frequently “put back”, I was and am more accepting of some toning. My 1892 has peripheral “album toning” and virtually mark-free proof like fields on both sides. That said, I’m not foolish enough to expect to find a 1893 like that. I expect more typical “moved metal” flow line luster on the ‘93. I keep finding heavily circulated ones. 

[EagleRJO]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:13 AM, Bspy107 said:

EagleRJO now you make me want to go and grab the two BU coins from my shop. I have to double check to look to see if there are any marks from cleaning but they are bright and just sit in the display case. Nobody seems to want them either ...

They struck 1 million of the 1892 50C Columbians and 1.5 million of the 1893 50C Columbians for a commemorative coin that doesn't seem super popular, so there are plenty around.  Some have really nice toning like the attached.  And what kind of shop do you have?

On 12/12/2023 at 3:45 AM, Bspy107 said:

I just learned there is a thing that happens to silver and that it becomes terminal meaning it’s slowly deteriorating and is essentially damaged. 

SIlver becomes toned or tarnished, but that's not deterioration which might make it "terminal".  It's not like wood that gets termites, so it's not clear to me what you are referring to.

Edited December 14, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:08 AM, EagleRJO said:

They struck 1 million of the 1892 50C Columbians and the 1.5 million of the 1893 50C Columbians for a commemorative coin that doesn't seem super popular, so there are plenty around.  Some have really nice toning like the attached.  And what kind of shop do you have?

SIlver becomes toned or tarnished, but that's not deterioration which might make it "terminal".  It's not like wood that gets termites, so it's not clear to me what you are referring to.

It’s clear to me, @EagleRJO. All toning, and as my lawyer repeatedly says, “all means ALL”, is but an intermediate stage on the inevitable way toward black toning. You can’t stop it. You can only hope to slow it down. 

[Lem E]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:14 AM, Bspy107 said:

Is there any resources to go over to help guide me though the modern nickels? 

jeffersonnickel.org is a pretty good resource for general information. I would recommend these two books if you want to take a deeper dive.  

[Bspy107]

“The Jefferson Nickel Analyst” is perfect thanks Lem E gonna pick that up do you know what kind of history is in there as well is it general nickel history or in depth chapters of history for each era and specific years? 

[Lem E]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:07 PM, Bspy107 said:

“The Jefferson Nickel Analyst” is perfect thanks Lem E gonna pick that up do you know what kind of history is in there as well is it general nickel history or in depth chapters of history for each era and specific years? 

It has quite a bit of history and general information in the first half of the book. There is also info for each year of coins from 38 to early 90s. It’s a good read for any nickel collector. I use the other book for more modern issues that are not in Nagengasts book. Here are a few examples from the book. I included the info for your 42D. Nice piece by the way. 

[EagleRJO]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:48 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s clear to me, @EagleRJO. All toning, and as my lawyer repeatedly says, “all means ALL”, is but an intermediate stage on the inevitable way toward black toning. You can’t stop it. You can only hope to slow it down. 

I was talking more about the use of the word "terminal" and "deterioration" related to the toning that they just learned about.  Sure toning will continue, we all know that, but I wouldn’t consider that "terminal deterioration" of the coin which makes it sound like the coin will be destroyed, and why I asked the op what they meant by using those terms.

[Bspy107]

Just ordered a copy Lem that is a cool book has a little synopsis of each year that’s kinda fun. Can’t wait to open it up and see what else is inside. Thanks for the photos. 

[Just Bob]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:22 AM, EagleRJO said:

I was talking more about the use of the word "terminal" and "deterioration" related to the toning that they just learned about.  Sure toning will continue, we all know that, but I wouldn’t consider that "terminal deterioration" of the coin which makes it sound like the coin will be destroyed, and why I asked the op what they meant by using those terms.

Terminal toning etches the surface of the coin. So, while not necessarily destroyed, the coin is definitely damaged.

Skip Fazzari, who used to post as "Insider," showed pictures of a coin several years ago that had been dipped to remove terminal toning. The etching was very noticable.

Edit: I should clarify. It isn't actually the toning itself that causes damage to the coin. The contaminants on the surface caused the damage, and toning is just the evidence of the contamination.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Just Bob

[Halbrook Family]

My father gave me his 1938 to 1990 Dansco book. I finished that off circulated but wanted a updated 1938 - 2005 with proofs book and got that going with only BU's. Then got the 2006 - now with proofs. Most of the modern nickels are pretty cheap. 1982 pd and 1983 pd you might pay a bit more. The 2018 s Reverse is pretty cool as well as the 2017 s enhanced. The 1997 P Botanic is going to be the hardest of them all. Only 25,000 were made. They are out there but go for $150 ungraded. 

Those books look great. 

[EagleRJO]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:25 AM, Just Bob said:

Skip Fazzari, who used to post as "Insider," showed pictures of a coin several years ago that had been dipped to remove terminal toning. The etching was very noticable.

If you have a link to something like that or a similar article I would be interested in checking that out as I have seen massively toned coins dipped in eZest and Bam almost good as new, but that stuff is super tricky and usually affects luster.  Although I have seen a number of heavily toned coins with just the tarnish removed come back straight graded.  So I wouldn't refer to those coins as "terminally toned".

Edited December 15, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:13 AM, Bspy107 said:

right now seems not many people are into nickels and the prices are quite low.

I have found that there are more people into nickels and the prices have been getting higher.  If you are getting what you are looking for at half price you are doing well. I wish you continued luck. I am about halfway through my registry nickel set and some coins are just too much money for this old guy. Oh and this is my 1893 not as nice as Sandon's 

Edited December 15, 2023 by J P M

[Just Bob]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:30 AM, EagleRJO said:

If you have a link to something like that or a similar article I would be interested in checking that out as I have seen massively toned coins dipped in eZest and Bam almost good as new, but that stuff is super tricky and usually affects luster.  Although I have seen a number of heavily toned coins with just the tarnish removed come back straight graded.  So I wouldn't refer to those coins as "terminally toned".

Here is the thread

It is hard to follow with all of the off topic posts, but there is a link in the thread to a similar thread on CT that might be easier to keep up with.

[J P M]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:13 AM, Just Bob said:

Here is the thread

It is hard to follow with all of the off topic posts, but there is a link in the thread to a similar thread on CT that might be easier to keep up with.

Yes, I agree it can get off track, the op was asking about grading and then it turned into nickels also. So to answer the first question from the pictures posted I would say not worth grading. The 1893 can be purchased already graded for around the same price range as grading costs or less many times if you look around.  

Edited December 15, 2023 by J P M