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I am seeing more and more Ebay listings like this one - sellers trying to scam some unknowing buyer
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Started by Just Bob,

38 posts in this topic

Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted

You will be pleased to learn I have been swayed by your thinking and tactics. I address sellers of the series I am intimately familiar with: F20F GR. I always summarize my credentials and zero in on those attempting to exact unjustifiably high selling prices for uncertified examples linked with a No Returns Accepted policy. As a responsible hobbyist, I take umbrage with those whose main line of seller items are non-numismatic in nature and set forth my argument with unassailable logic. I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts.

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powermad5000

powermad5000

Posted
Posted (edited)

I have an experiment if you wish to just do it "on a whim" so to speak @Just Bob.

I myself have come across similar to (and much worse than) this in the last two years to a level that is ad nauseum. The number of these on eBay is just astounding. I do not know what to do really as I could sit with my laptop in my lap on the couch and type ALL DAY LONG in an attempt to combat this kind of abuse to the hobby. Since I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I usually wait until I come across the "most disgusting" listings (i.e. this same listing you posted but asking for $1,000 for it). I have to tell you for those that I do send a message to pointing out obvious flaws in their listings, I receive back in reply some of the most ignorant and defiant responses. One was "Well, then don't look at my coins" and another was "Keep your opinion to yourself". Amongst others. eBay started that Authentic Guarantee thing for jewelry and other items such as items that were signed, but when it comes to coins on there, it is like the wild wild west. They have no oversight. And those selling parking lot coins for $1,000, $2,000, or more are allowed to run with abandon. The platform has no "fact checkers" when it comes to coins or paper money. In my opinion, it will eventually hurt their platform as a whole.

That said, the experiment if you wish to spend a very short time trying it (but I would not if this kind of thing you have posted here upsets you because you will probably be really upset by the end of the experiment) is to go on eBay but stay in the modern era of coinage (1965-present) and the more modern the better. Pick a random issue that pops into your head first (try 1995 (P) Lincoln cent for example) and filter for ungraded and uncertified. Then scroll down through both auction and buy it now listings and I bet you will find something like this or worse like a parking lot coin going for $250. You can do this with almost any modern your head can come up with and you will find some miniscule die chip being listed as a colossal ERROR and the seller looking to get $500 because it is EXTREMELY RARE or UNIQUE. There are some "special" Roosevelt dimes in the 2000's on there as well. If there aren't too many listings at the time, this one always works. Just type in error coin in the search box and use the same filters. And keep a barf bag handy when you do that one.

The gross amount of listings on eBay like this is appalling. 

EDIT : I just picked 2005 Roosevelt dime randomly in the search box at the top and selected only one filter for Uncertified. On page 2, I came across a listing for a 2005 D Roosy dryer coin listed as a MAJOR ERROR for $1,000. Its a dryer coin. It is junk. As I said, the prolific number of this garbage is disgusting.

Edited by powermad5000
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Coinbuf

Coinbuf

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/13/2023 at 8:13 AM, coastaljerseyguy said:

The gross amount of listings on eBay like this is appalling.

Hopefully EBAY is not accruing fee receivables based on these scam listings or their financials will be messed up. 

Listing items on ebay is free unless you choose to use/add on the promotional listing feature.   No fees are charged until the item is sold for normal listings.   That is partly why ebay is such a dumping ground for this type of junk, if you had to pay to list there would be less.

Edited by Coinbuf
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coastaljerseyguy

coastaljerseyguy

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Posted

Coinbuf.

My comment was directed at EBAY and not at the lister.  I assume as any normal business they accrue future revenue received into the current fiscal period since the listing was initiated, even though not sold yet & fees received until later.  They probably have some formula based on historical averages that for every xxx dollars of listings they eventually receive $y.  Would be less then their actual fee rate to be earned (~ 4 - 12% based on sellers business model) knowing a lot of stuff doesn't ever sell.  But these scam listing inflate their gross listings. 

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Coinbuf

Coinbuf

Posted
Posted
On 12/14/2023 at 7:47 AM, coastaljerseyguy said:

Coinbuf.

My comment was directed at EBAY and not at the lister.  I assume as any normal business they accrue future revenue received into the current fiscal period since the listing was initiated, even though not sold yet & fees received until later.  They probably have some formula based on historical averages that for every xxx dollars of listings they eventually receive $y.  Would be less then their actual fee rate to be earned (~ 4 - 12% based on sellers business model) knowing a lot of stuff doesn't ever sell.  But these scam listing inflate their gross listings. 

Your scenario is not part of GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices) as I leaned them.   No sale has occurred nor can there be any reasonable expectation of a sale just because a listing has been created.   Yes companies are allowed under GAAP to accrue sales, but those are sales that have actually happened but payments will be delayed into a future reporting period.   Creating a listing is not a sale, it is a potential sale but not an actual sale, the reason a company can accrue sales is to properly match sales and inventory in the period that they happen.   Accruing sales that have not occurred would not be in line with GAAP accounting, at least not as I learned it, and this is especially true of a company like ebay where there is no matching of inventory to sales.

Now I received my accounting degree in the late eighties and have not been a practicing accountant for over 25 years, so I am not up on any changes to GAAP so I do admit that it is possible this has been changed as a way to make the income statements look better than they really are and keep the stock price inflated.   But I sure hope that is not the case as it would be wrong in my opinion and could be used by management to overstate sales, mislead investors, and lead to unwarranted bonuses for management.

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rrantique

rrantique

Posted
Posted
On 12/8/2023 at 11:18 AM, Just Bob said:

I sent the seller this short-but-to-the-point message < This coin is not rare. There were over 1.5 billion minted in 1967, none of which had a mint mark. They are still often found in circulation.> 

 

Ebay link click here

 

Screenshot (12).png

kni_6186

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powermad5000

powermad5000

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On 12/15/2023 at 4:05 PM, rrantique said:

kni_6186

0% positive feedback (0)

Any of these are scam sellers that eBay needs to crack down on. Zero previous sales, zero feedback, and asking a ridiculous price for a common or damaged coin. 

I bet also they have a no return policy on the listing too. And if they find a sucker to buy it, I could also bet they will disappear as a seller faster than a fart in the wind.

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Greenstang

Greenstang

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Posted (edited)

One of the problems is that many sellers are uninformed in the world of Numistatics and see    
something online and believe they have that rare coin. That is why there are dozens of listings
like this on eBay everyday from first time sellers. Although you  will find some informed scammers.  
trying to take advantage of the uniformed buyers. I have seen several cases on the various coin    
forums where someone has bought a damaged coin and thought they had bought a rare error.

eBay policy states that you can ask up to $2500.00 for an uncertified coin as long as it is not misrepresented.

Edited by Greenstang
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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted
On 12/16/2023 at 7:14 AM, Greenstang said:

eBay policy states that you can ask up to $2500.00 for an uncertified coin as long as it is not misrepresented.

Then eBay's "policy" is inadequate to prevent outright theft.

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powermad5000

powermad5000

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Posted

I cannot entirely accept the viewpoint of @Greenstang in regards to this. While that may be the case of a small percentage of sellers, I think the majority of those with zero feedback stars and zero sales asking ridiculous prices for garbage coins are scammers. Period. And as I stated, I am sure they disappear as soon as they make the sale. They all sell with a no return policy.

When I started on eBay, my first sale was a snare drum. I also had listed electrical parts and components. And some tools. And other things found around the house. I was still selling a mix of items like this interspersed with coins all the way up until the whole 1099-K thing hit. Now it only takes a few coins and I'm at the tax level (which I refuse to pay so I plan my listings and that's it for the year).

The real reason for my disagreement is I have messaged some of these fly-by-nighters, and as I stated in the open of this thread, I received some really ignorant and bold and defiant responses from them. That is not the response of a misinformed or unknowledgeable seller. A clueless seller when challenged with facts of why their damaged parking lot coin is not a colossal error worth $500 should be more like "Hello. I am not a collector and was told this coin was an error. Thank you for the information and I will take the listing down." instead of "It's none of your business what I sell my stuff for."

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

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Posted (edited)

It's not just Ebay sellers....I see the coin infomercials all the time using artificially high prices from years ago.....and/or....using an ASK price on Ebay (item unsold) as the true market value when it's 1/2 or 1/4th that level or less.:o

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

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Posted
On 12/15/2023 at 10:40 AM, Coinbuf said:

Your scenario is not part of GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices) as I leaned them.   No sale has occurred nor can there be any reasonable expectation of a sale just because a listing has been created.   Yes companies are allowed under GAAP to accrue sales, but those are sales that have actually happened but payments will be delayed into a future reporting period.   Creating a listing is not a sale, it is a potential sale but not an actual sale, the reason a company can accrue sales is to properly match sales and inventory in the period that they happen.   Accruing sales that have not occurred would not be in line with GAAP accounting, at least not as I learned it, and this is especially true of a company like ebay where there is no matching of inventory to sales.  Now I received my accounting degree in the late eighties and have not been a practicing accountant for over 25 years, so I am not up on any changes to GAAP so I do admit that it is possible this has been changed as a way to make the income statements look better than they really are and keep the stock price inflated.   But I sure hope that is not the case as it would be wrong in my opinion and could be used by management to overstate sales, mislead investors, and lead to unwarranted bonuses for management.

Last time I checked an analyst report on Ebay (it's been a while), but I am sure that listings per se did not accrue any revenue.  Treated like inventory....you can't recognize it as a sale.

If we need to, I can dig up a report.

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted
On 12/16/2023 at 8:14 AM, Greenstang said:

eBay policy states that you can ask up to $2500.00 for an uncertified coin as long as it is not misrepresented.

Really ?  Anything above that they won't allow ? :o

As long as the item had a return policy I would be OK with going above that.  

I always wondered why, like their auto website, there wasn't a separate "Experts Only" Ebay or something like that for more pricey coins where maybe you had to be certified or put up a bond or something like that.  Place that could more easily compete with HA or GC, etc.

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/21/2023 at 10:51 PM, powermad5000 said:

That may be the policy for buy-it-now listings but I do see some of the larger sellers have coins go well above that all the time when they sell them at auction on eBay.

What may be the policy ?

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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ldhair

ldhair

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Posted

I believe that many of the stupid listings are posted by folks that don't even know how stupid it is. It's hard to know who is scamming and who is just stupid. Sometimes you hear of an honest seller removing a listing after a polite message.

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powermad5000

powermad5000

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 10:43 AM, ldhair said:

I believe that many of the stupid listings are posted by folks that don't even know how stupid it is. It's hard to know who is scamming and who is just stupid. Sometimes you hear of an honest seller removing a listing after a polite message.

Most certainly. I will message sellers, and it is immediately clear which path the seller is on. Getting no response or getting a defiant response = scammer. Getting a response like one I got this week that he uses 100X as a way to grade his coins = not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the third type of response is someone who states they know nothing about coins and are appreciative of the information = someone who just doesn't know. Actually, there is a fourth. One guy I messaged stated in not so nice terms that the TPG's have ruined coins for everyone = misguided/has a bone to pick. I have a feeling he sent some coins to be graded and they didn't come back the way he thought they should.

But the problem is there are just SO MANY listings that one could sit and just type messages all day. It is overwhelming.

...

I just spaced out a little bit and in the absence of direct thought concerning my day today, this just popped in my head. Could not AI be used to screen listings for coins? Could eBay not come up with a method since you have to upload pics and make a listing anyway, that AI could "review" the listing for accuracy and also reasonable pricing for the presented coin? Then AI could either approve or reject the listing. Rejected listings would have the chance to be corrected but if the seller still wants to charge $2,000 for a damaged coin then it would be blocked.

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 12:57 PM, powermad5000 said:

Most certainly. I will message sellers, and it is immediately clear which path the seller is on. Getting no response or getting a defiant response = scammer. Getting a response like one I got this week that he uses 100X as a way to grade his coins = not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the third type of response is someone who states they know nothing about coins and are appreciative of the information = someone who just doesn't know. Actually, there is a fourth. One guy I messaged stated in not so nice terms that the TPG's have ruined coins for everyone = misguided/has a bone to pick. I have a feeling he sent some coins to be graded and they didn't come back the way he thought they should.  But the problem is there are just SO MANY listings that one could sit and just type messages all day. It is overwhelming... I just spaced out a little bit and in the absence of direct thought concerning my day today, this just popped in my head. Could not AI be used to screen listings for coins? Could eBay not come up with a method since you have to upload pics and make a listing anyway, that AI could "review" the listing for accuracy and also reasonable pricing for the presented coin? Then AI could either approve or reject the listing. Rejected listings would have the chance to be corrected but if the seller still wants to charge $2,000 for a damaged coin then it would be blocked.

Many probably have coins from years or decades ago...they Google a few things about the coin and think it's worth 3-10x the FMV.

Something like that.:|

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 12:57 PM, powermad5000 said:

.... he uses 100X as a way to grade his coins = not the sharpest tool in the shed....

I suspect the venerable VKurtB will get a rise after reading this little snippet.  🤣

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 12:57 PM, powermad5000 said:

Most certainly. I will message sellers, and it is immediately clear which path the seller is on. Getting no response or getting a defiant response = scammer. Getting a response like one I got this week that he uses 100X as a way to grade his coins = not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the third type of response is someone who states they know nothing about coins and are appreciative of the information = someone who just doesn't know. Actually, there is a fourth. One guy I messaged stated in not so nice terms that the TPG's have ruined coins for everyone = misguided/has a bone to pick. I have a feeling he sent some coins to be graded and they didn't come back the way he thought they should. But the problem is there are just SO MANY listings that one could sit and just type messages all day. It is overwhelming.

There are so many morrons out there they may have been told stuff like..... "The TPGs deliberately give them low grades or say they've been altered...then they buy them on the cheap....I know people who sold a coin for $15 and the TPGs or a dealer sold it for $25,000...don't let them rip you off...the folks messaging you are looking to get the coins on the cheap...that Morgan Dollar you have that Grandpa sandpapered clean, don't let them lie and tell you it's not worth hundreds of dollars."  xD  xD  xD

I see the same thing in my field, money management, all the time but with folks wanting to act on "hot tips" or seduced by 12% "safe yields" and stuff like that. :o

Or gold investments where you buy bullion, lend it out, do some other stuff, and make 20% a year while maintaining coin ownership. :o

There's more information today than ever before....but the decision-making is stupider than ever.  I think that is what Bill Ackman vs. Harvard is all about.  xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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mlovmo

mlovmo

Posted
Posted (edited)

This also happens with "higher value, LEGIT coins," too. 

For example, a seller will list at eBay a coin that normally sells for, say, $2,500~$3,000 in the North American market/eBay for $7,000 BIN.

The seller does NOT expect anyone to buy it via eBay, of course.  EBay in this sense is only an ADVERTISING PLATFORM for this coin.

How?  Well, many dealers' eBay handles are exactly the same as the name of their coin business or online name they use elsewhere.

If buyers see this coin, they simply do a google search of that name and find the online store or email, or Facebook or IG page and THAT is where the real negotiations take place.

The seller and buyer agree to a price closer to that $2,500~$3,000 and terms (money now or coin first, or 50% now and 50% when coin arrives) and negotiate it all via PM or email.

The seller then pulls the listing and sells the coin according to the agreed terms.

The beauty of this method is that some **insufficiently_thoughtful_person** may just come along first and pay the $7,000 for the BIN price(!)

Edited by mlovmo
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J P M

J P M

Posted
Posted
On 12/27/2023 at 4:09 PM, mlovmo said:

This also happens with "higher value, LEGIT coins," too. 

For example, a seller will list at eBay a coin that normally sells for, say, $2,500~$3,000 in the North American market/eBay for $7,000 BIN.

The seller does NOT expect anyone to buy it via eBay, of course.  EBay in this sense is only an ADVERTISING PLATFORM for this coin.

How?  Well, many dealers' eBay handles are exactly the same as the name of their coin business or online name they use elsewhere.

If buyers see this coin, they simply do a google search of that name and find the online store or email, or Facebook or IG page and THAT is where the real negotiations take place.

The seller and buyer agree to a price closer to that $2,500~$3,000 and terms (money now or coin first, or 50% now and 50% when coin arrives) and negotiate it all via PM or email.

The seller then pulls the listing and sells the coin according to the agreed terms.

The beauty of this method is that some insufficiently_thoughtful_person may just come along first and pay the $7,000 for the BIN price(!)

I thought you could not sell privately, items you had listed on eBay.

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