There is some México Libertad Onza from 1983 with tripled Die Reverse 1 1

[Hector Rivera 405]

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm not an expert on DDO or on the Libertad's (though I have a few)...but I think this is not pronounced enough to qualify as DDO.  Not seeing it throughout or enough.  

I'll wait to hear from one of the "experts."  

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the forum

Not a DDO, you can’t have Die Doubling showing on both sides of the coin.   
Looks like it is Machine Doubling 

[Hector Rivera 405]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:24 PM, Greenstang said:

Welcome to the forum

Not a DDO, you can’t have Die Doubling showing on both sides of the coin.   
Looks like it is Machine Doubling 

 

On 11/7/2023 at 7:24 PM, Greenstang said:

Welcome to the forum

Not a DDO, you can’t have Die Doubling showing on both sides of the coin.   
Looks like it is Machine Doubling 

Thank you

 

[dprince1138]

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5688/Double-Dies-vs-Machine-Doubling/

[Hoghead515]

Looks like machine doubling to me also which is very common and holds no value.  

[Hector Rivera 405]

[GoldFinger1969]

So "Machine Doubling" is more-or-less a lighter version of DDO, folks ?

MD isn't worth much as an error variety...but DDO is...is that right ?

[Sandon]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So "Machine Doubling" is more-or-less a lighter version of DDO, folks ?

   No, it is not!  Machine doubling, a.k.a. strike doubling or mechanical doubling, is caused by a die that is loose in the press, resulting in shallow, step-like secondary images. A doubled die ("DDO" means doubled die obverse) is caused by doubling on the die itself. See Double Dies vs. Machine Doubling | NGC (ngccoin.com). Coins with machine doubling are not considered to be worth a premium, while coins with die doubling may be.

[cobymordet]

Don't get me started on Master hub dubbin', that just ruins the party for all the coins involved....

3

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2

.

1

...

[powermad5000]

I would say with this coin, the same as with other coins. Clear, cropped, full photos of both sides of the coin would be helpful. Seems we have the closeups of the area in question, but it would be nice to see the whole coin.

[powermad5000]

On 11/7/2023 at 8:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

MD isn't worth much as an error variety...but DDO is...is that right ?

MD isn't even an error as much as it is poor quality control. Thus MD commands no premium. True hub doubled DDO produced coins CAN be worth a premium, depending on the level of the doubling. Meaning, there are some modern varieties that are almost not noticeable and are not going to haul in premiums like the 1995 DDO Lincoln Cent, 1972 DDO Lincoln Cent, or the 1955 DDO Lincoln Wheat Cent.

If I am not mistaken there are 9 varieties of the 1972 DDO Lincoln Cent (FS 101 thru FS 109) with some of them having barely noticeable doubling or only in certain areas, so the one with the very clear to the naked eye two distinct images gets premium, and as the doubling becomes less noticeable, the premium for those drops. 

[Hector Rivera 405]

On 8/11/2023 at 0:03, powermad5000 said:

Yo diría que con esta moneda, lo mismo que con otras monedas. Sería útil disponer de fotografías claras, recortadas y completas de ambas caras de la moneda. Parece que tenemos primeros planos del área en cuestión, pero sería bueno ver la moneda completa.

I have two different 1983s in MS 68 both what I would like is to be safe for a future crossover

[EagleRJO]

It seems like you are posting two different coins, Piece #1 and Piece #2, you think may have either a Doubled Die Reverse or a Tripled Die Reverse.  See the attached infographic to help identify "machine doubling" which is what there appears to be on these coins, and which would not be a variety or add any value.

If you look at one of the referenced NGC VarietyPlus images for the attributed 1983 MO 1-Onza DDR (see attached) you should notice the doubling appears to be at the same level as the original character, like at the "1", with an offset or "notch" at the corners.  The photos of your coins are not the best, but it looks like it is step or shelf like with a lower doubled area, which would be machine doubling.

If you look carefully at the coins in-hand with good lighting you should be able to see if it's machine doubling with a step or shelf like appearance without any notching.

[cobymordet]

Sorry, Hector, your initial photos were a bit confusing to me.  I could not tell what was your coin and what was the NGC variety photos.  Now that you have provided the PCGS Serial #, I can differentiate. 

I am the last guy to be talking about DDO's, but I will say that Serial # 44782331 looks very different than Serial # 44782339.  The lettering: (1 onza) & (Plata Pura) on 44782331 looks distorted, a lot going on.  I have always thought DDO's were uniform across all lettering, but 44782331 is not uniform.  Some aspects match with the NGC Variety photos, but "1 Onza" seems to be doubling in the wrong direction. 

 

EagleRJO, this sounds odd to me for asking, but, is it possible to have a DDO & Machine doubling?

 

The first "A" in Plata looks wild and the last "A" 's look flattened out. 

 

Blown up photos of SN 44782331:

 

 

[Hector Rivera 405]

If in the ounces of '83 the DDO is confusing and scarcer compared to the DDO of other dates, there is also little information to compare.

[cobymordet]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:30 AM, Hector Rivera 405 said:

If in the ounces of '83 the DDO is confusing and scarcer compared to the DDO of other dates, there is also little information to compare.

I hope my post did not mislead or confuse you, I apologize if I did.  I am not knowledgeable enough to state anything accurate about your coins.  I try to leave that to the smart guys that have been doing for decades.  I just looked at them and I saw things that don't seem right to me, so I pointed them out.  For the moment, it is not known what correct attributes your coin has.  At this point, scarcity is not important.  The focus is trying to ascertain the attributes, if any, that your coin may or may not possess.  If you coin does have attributes, then it eventually would need to be verified by a certified TPG (Third-Party Grader: NGC, PCGS, etc...).  This forum is primarily for individuals to get education and direction so that the best result is achieved.  Did you buy these coins already graded or did you submit them?

Edited November 8, 2023 by cobymordet
it = I, can't spelt write

[Greenstang]

Quote

 is it possible to have a DDO & Machine doubling?

Yes it is. A Doubled Die is on the striking die so all coins struck frrom that die would show Doubling

Machine Doubling is a mechanical issue when the coin wa struck so it would only show on coins struck until the issue was corrected so it is possible to have both.

[GoldFinger1969]

I learned alot in this thread, thanks to everybody !!  

[EagleRJO]

 

On 11/8/2023 at 2:03 AM, cobymordet said:

EagleRJO, this sounds odd to me for asking, but, is it possible to have a DDO & Machine doubling?

Greenstang gave you a good answer, but in case that didn't sink in the following webpages have a detailed explanation on doubled dies and worthless machine doubling.  So you could have working dies with doubling that become loose in the coining press, which could create yet another but different secondary impression of the devices or characters.  But it would look different per the infographic posted above.

https://doubleddie.com/58222.html

https://doubleddie.com/144801.html

On 11/8/2023 at 2:30 AM, Hector Rivera 405 said:

... in the [1-ounce] 83 the DDO is confusing and scarcer compared to the DDO of other dates, there is also little information to compare.

On 11/8/2023 at 1:37 AM, EagleRJO said:

If you look carefully at the coins in-hand with good lighting you should be able to see if it's machine doubling with a step or shelf like appearance without any notching.

Your 1983 MO 1-Onza coins do not match any known doubled dies looking thru identified ones on several sites, and it is a lower value modern 1-ounce silver bullion coin where you can expect there to be fewer varieties attributed.  Have you carefully looked at the coins to see if the doubling appears shelf like?

[Hector Rivera 405]

yes I did it yesterday

[EagleRJO]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:19 PM, EagleRJO said:

Have you carefully looked at the coins to see if the doubling appears shelf like?

On 11/8/2023 at 7:58 PM, Hector Rivera 405 said:

yes I did it yesterday

So is the doubling shelf-like, or lower than the primary character, as it appears in the photos?