Read this BEFORE you waste your money submitting all the mint errors 2 2

[lucy g]

These are facts, not a rant.  I'm hoping new folks to submitting coins will read this first before wasting their time and money like I did.  I submitted 30 coins to NGC for mint error grading.  Finding a RPM, or a DDO or a DDR is not what it used to be.  You can scope the image and look at it 100 times, but if it is not clear to the naked eye without magnification don't bother sending it in.  None of my coins were marked with mint errors.  Even though you can SEE the error in their imaging, clear as day such as the doubled E in EC on the bessie coleman quarter as you see attached.  They won't explain why.  And when I called to dispute it, all the customer service representative could say to me was "the grader has it in their notes this is not a mint error".  And thats IT.  It can be plain as the nose on your face but they will not change it.   So you can waste upwards of $50+ for imaging and grading, for a .25 cent coin.  Senders be aware please.

[Mr.Bill347]

Well LucyG, welcome to the forum. You learned a hard lesson. One that many have and will encounter. The forum gets questions daily from folks asking about coins that they think are error coins. Much of the blame goes to the YouTube people that demonstrate worthless coins that they state are valuable errors. Real errors are few and far between. The folks on this forum are REALLY knowledgeable about errors and coins in general. If you had asked these folks about your coin, you would have saved yourself the expense and frustration you had.  You might not always like the opinions here but for the most part, they are spot on. You cannot guess the judgement of a third party grader, who is always the final word. I’m not saying mistakes don’t happen but often what collectors see as value does not correctly occur. Your post is appropriate for those who are not in the know. But then those people do not post their coins here before the BIG disappointments. 

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the Chat Board

Agree with Mr. Bill on what he has stated.   
If you were to show a closeup of the area you think was Doubled, someone here will be able to verify it one
way or the other but my feeling is that it is NOT a DD. It would be very unusual to have only one letter doubled.  
Don’t forget also that a TPG usually only uses a 5X when checking for errors and if it is not listed in Variety Plus, then it is not recorded as such.
I think scopes do more harm than good as they bring out all the minor anomolies that are on a coin that many newer collectors think are errors.
Personally  if I can’t see an error without magnification, then it is too minor to have much value.  
It is only major errors that you can see without magnification that have much value. 
 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Greenstang
Typo

[J P M]

Sorry you had to learn the hard way Lucy.. Bill and Greenstang are correct. Most TPG do not recognize many of the items you asked for unless it is a very rare error. Now days any true error is very hard to find.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:07 PM, lucy g said:

You can scope the image and look at it 100 times, but if it is not clear to the naked eye without magnification don't bother sending it in.

Exactly.

Searching for errors and minutiae is a black hole that is pulling time and resources away from you. 

[JKK]

Tough lesson, indeed. Very spendy one. Sorry to hear of it.

When I look at the general phenomenon, I think it comes down to a complete and perhaps engineered decline of critical thinking.

In 1965, the US Mint mostly did away with silver in circulation coinage. They minted a lot in 1965 because they had to; the silver started coming out of circulation as fast as people could hoard it, and the commerce needed change. (Now those people are retiring, and are shocked to find out that it's not worth all that much.) So, it was easy to sift through one's change to get higher value...briefly. Soon the silver finds became rare. By my collecting beginning, circa 1970, they were pretty well cleaned out with an occasional leaker. Best silver odds were still war nickels, because so few people realized they had a little less silver than a silver dime.

If it were that easy to just sift through one's change and pull out coins that were worth tens or hundreds of dollars, enough people would do that as well, and it would not take very long before all such coins were out of circulation. Ergo, it can't be that easy to just cherrypick Rare Error Varieties, or everyone would do it. Critical Thinking 101.

We get a few every day, and we try to let them down gently unless they become phalli. In addition to the complete collapse of critical thinking, we get people (not the OP) who just can't let go of it. They argue, debate, point out some problem they don't actually understand but are certain they do, whip out ten more coins (always posted in the same thread, naturally), and insist that they are now rich. We tell them to send 'em in and get rich. We never hear back that they got rich.

The fact is cherrypicking can be fun, and some people gradually develop modest collections of RPMs and such. And as long as people are not thinking Big Bucks, and so long as they are not paying $60 per coin to be told they are worth only face, that's not such a big deal.

And with regard to the other CT aspect of the whole pursuit, I wonder why it's never occurred to people how much authentic coin they could buy for those grading costs. If six coins is about $300, that'll buy a pleasing GSA 188x-CC Morgan, MS 62+. Not bad! I'd rather have that than the plastic. But that so rarely seems to occur to people.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:07 PM, lucy g said:

Senders be aware please

Good post and very commendable to admit the mistake which maybe others can learn from.  Many would have likely just wanted to forget that.  And not only does an error have to be clearly visible at 5x, but it also has to be significant enough, which it sounds like you may have also encountered.

For example, die rotations between say 5 and 15 degrees would be considered an error as it's beyond typical mint tolerances.  However, those rotations are not very significant with no collector value, and NGC will only attribute a rotation of at least 15 degrees as an error.  And for NGC to attribute any variety, which also includes doubled dies, it needs to be listed on NGC VarietyPlus.  I don't see any doubled dies for a 2023 25C listed there or on other variety sites.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/7765/learn-grading-mint-errors-part-1/

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/

https://www.error-ref.com/

Edited October 22, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

    You may take some measure of consolation, first of all, from the fact that MS 67 is a fairly high grade to receive on a coin issued for circulation, although it is probably still not worth the grading and related fees and costs. At this writing, only two 2023-P Bessie Coleman quarters have graded higher at NGC, both MS 68 (107 in MS 67).  American Women Quarters (2022-2025) | Coin Census Population Report | NGC (ngccoin.com) Hopefully, at least some of the other 29 coins also got decent grades. Second, and more importantly, I intend to refer this topic to future participants in this forum who express an intention to submit coins to grading services without sufficient knowledge about the coins they intend to submit or the practices of the grading services to which they intend to submit them.  Perhaps others will learn from and not repeat your experience. 

    The following are some of the facts you should have known before considering submitting these coins to NGC:

    1. Most "doubling" seen on coins is not die doubling but strike (a.k.a. mechanical or machine) doubling or die deterioration doubling, both of which are worthless to collectors and not attributable by grading services. Can you tell the difference?  See, for example, Double Dies vs. Machine Doubling | NGC (ngccoin.com). 

    2. NGC and most knowledgeable collectors classify doubled dies as die varieties, not mint errors.  See Variety vs. Mint Error | NGC (ngccoin.com), What is a Variety? | NGC (ngccoin.com). Even if your coins were doubled dies and were otherwise attributable as such, it is possible that NGC would not have attributed your coins because you requested error attribution, not variety ("VarietyPlus") attribution. The previously linked and other articles on the NGC website contain statements such as the following: 

"NGC does not attribute as varieties coins that display Strike Doubling, Abrasion Doubling, Die Deterioration Doubling, Master Die Doubling (doubling that is found on all coins made produced from that master die), insignificant die chips, breaks, cracks or any variety coin that falls under mint tolerances for doubling or normal die wear.

With few exceptions, NGC will not attribute die varieties that require greater than 5x magnification to be clearly recognizable."

   3.  As indicated in the articles linked under paragraph no.2, NGC generally only attributes varieties listed on VarietyPlus, which, in the case of modern coins are generally limited to significant and popular varieties. Countries | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com).  Presumably, exceptions might be made for new discoveries of major varieties visible under no more than 5x magnification. Minor doubled dies, which almost all are since the mint's adoption of the "single squeeze" method, are listed on such sites as doubleddie.com and varietyvista.com and may be attributed by other grading services such as ANACS, but they usually aren't worth the cost.

   4. Regarding actual mint errors, the U.S. Mint adopted procedures in 2002 to prevent most significant errors (deformed planchets, off-center strikes, etc.) from leaving the mint, and very few have been found on coins dated after 2002. See 2023 "Redbook" at p. 440.  

@Erin33 (to name one)--Please take note of this topic.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:07 PM, lucy g said:

These are facts, not a rant.  I'm hoping new folks to submitting coins will read this first before wasting their time and money like I did.  I submitted 30 coins to NGC for mint error grading.  Finding a RPM, or a DDO or a DDR is not what it used to be.  You can scope the image and look at it 100 times, but if it is not clear to the naked eye without magnification don't bother sending it in.  None of my coins were marked with mint errors.  Even though you can SEE the error in their imaging, clear as day such as the doubled E in EC on the bessie coleman quarter as you see attached.  They won't explain why.  And when I called to dispute it, all the customer service representative could say to me was "the grader has it in their notes this is not a mint error".  And thats IT.  It can be plain as the nose on your face but they will not change it.   So you can waste upwards of $50+ for imaging and grading, for a .25 cent coin.  Senders be aware please.

Can I ask you, Lucy....

• How long have you been collecting ?
• What made you submit the coins in the first place ?  Was it your 1st submission ?
• Who told you that sending the coins in would likely verify your error coins as such and/or be a profitable investment ?

Welcome to the Forums.

[Just Bob]

( I started typing this reply when there were only three responses to the OP, but got sidetracked. Much of what I wanted to say has already been said by other posters, but I am going to post it any way.)

The tone of your post sounds like you are blaming NGC for not finding errors on coins that have no errors.  To begin with, re-punched mint marks and doubled dies are not actually mint errors. They are die varieties, and should be submitted as such. If your coins were submitted as errors, then they were sent to an error specialist who looks for things like planchet flaws, broadstrikes, struck-through errors, etc. They should have been submitted for variety attribution after first consulting NGC's Variety Plus, which lists the varieties that they recognize.

Secondly, if you are a seasoned veteran with many years of experience collecting coins and searching and finding error coins, then please disregard the following assumptions:

Most of the questions that we get from newcomers regarding what they think are valuable error coins are about coins that are either damaged, or have worthless strike doubling. You didn't say whether you had purchased the coins you sent in, or found them in circulation, but, the chances of finding 30 coins in circulation that are all genuine errors, or even varieties, are very slim. Is it possible that the doubling that you see on your coins is not, in fact, hub doubling, but is actually strike doubling? If this is the case, then this is not something that NGC or any other third-party grader recognizes as an actual error or variety. It's really just poor quality control on the part of the mint, and is considered by most collectors to be a form of damage. (Again, if this does not apply to you, please accept my apologies.)

Thirdly, your advice to not send in for attribution coins that have minor doubling not visible to the naked eye is excellent advice. I hope more people will follow it.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Just Bob

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 : Note: the following was posted just after JB posted his his reply...

No need to cross-examine the witness; I shall take the liberty [as a registered interloper] to assume that task for you... as regarding the first line of inquiry, one need only scroll up and see The Waving Hand and a date indicating a membership of less than thirty days.  The advent of "error mania" starts at an early age.  Moving right along, submission is a rite of passage. Like getting your first driver license the only difference being in the draft card days, you would get a letter which opened with a pleasant, "Greetings."  I divide collectors -- fairly or unfairly -- as AS or BS, i.e., After Silver was removed from coinage, or Before Silver (when coins were real). Whether it was the OP's first submission is of no moment unless we knew what it was comprised of. Your last query is a tough one. One former member urged people to send in everything that went counter to the learned membership's advice acknowledging it would be "an expensive learning experience."  What little remains of my conscience would never permit me to do so and, in point of fact, that is where I, and the membership proper diverge philosophically.  The OP has indicated hers was a bulk submission.  Practically, this means the futility of possible error attribution was discovered immediately.  I would have returned the submission and reimbursed all monies expended minus for practical expenses such as return postage and insurance. Why? Simply because the OP did not get what she paid for.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die-polishing.

[Modwriter]

Save your graded coins for your great great grandchildren.What was your lowest grade coin? MS67 Grade is excellent!

[powermad5000]

The others have already stated this, but I will say it again in this thread as I have in other threads to once again try to drive the point home. DDO, DDR, and RPM are NOT mint errors. They are varieties. And not all varieties are recognized by all graders. Some do not recognize very minor varieties.

OP, please spend some hours looking at everything on the website error-ref.com to learn what are mint errors and what are not mint errors.

Also, there is a four part series on this website that teaches about mint errors. The following link is the first part in the series.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/7765

[J P M]

Lucy. We have not seen the other side but I have to say. Getting a 67 on that coin was a gift . It has lots of hits and a scratch that goes from two a clock to four a clock. I hope you have some more with good grades out of 30 coins.  

Edited October 21, 2023 by J P M

[“”]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:01 AM, J P M said:

Lucy. We have not seen the other side but I have to say. Getting a 67 on that coin was a gift . It has lots of hits and a scratch that goes from two a clock to four a clock. I hope you have some more with good grades out of 30 coins.  

I bet that is a die crack from two o’clock to four. If that was a scratch, NGC would have body bagged that coin with no grade.

[J P M]

On 10/21/2023 at 9:41 AM, Simple Collector said:

I bet that is a die crack from two o’clock to four. If that was a scratch, NGC would have body bagged that coin with no grade.

I was looking at this shot on a close up and it just looks like a scratch skipping over the clouds. And the obverse is nothing special for a MS 67. It is a Top Pop https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6863218-003/67/

Edited October 21, 2023 by J P M

[GoldFinger1969]

I could be wrong...but it seems like I've seen more of these threads started by Newbies who swear they have some Mint error or rare attribute coin....in the last 6 months....then in the previous 6 years.

Definitely more than in 2020-21 during the height of Covid-19 Stay-At-Home.

[EagleRJO]

Seems to me like there were more from the stay-at-home lock down period were people were so bored they were picking up new hobbies and going through pocket change.  Deffinely also significant spikes in prices at that time from people picking up the hobby.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:52 AM, EagleRJO said:

Seems to me like there were more from the stay-at-home lock down period were people were so bored they were picking up new hobbies and going through pocket change.  Deffinely also significant spikes in prices at that time from people picking up the hobby.

I don't recall it....we picked up oldtimers who had left or been inactive, but I don't recall all these "What is it worth ?" or "Is this a valuable penny" threads.  I could be wrong but it didn't stand out.

Whatever....

[lucy g]

I completely forgot about this thread....and I have to say? Every one of you is right, and I deserved to be roasted   completely roasted like marshmallows at the camp site.  This is what happens when penny prissy pants wastes money and goes coin crazy thinking she found EVERY error in the world.  Never realizing what the coin world actually is or how to navigate through it.  Instead of posting this~  I should have stayed in my lane and done a lot more deep dive digging on submissions, errors, and what is what.  It is what it is, and I thank the contributors for all the extra suggestions.

~Penny prissy pants out!

[dprince1138]

United States Categories | VarietyPlus® | NGC

Also, I would recommend familiarizing yourself with typical die issues\varieties and to purchase a jeweler's loupe ($13 on Amazon is what I did) and study coins yourself.  Personally, I would only send in a coin that has a die variety that is too small to verify or that the rarity of the die variety is above a rating of 3, so as to have a professional grade label.  There are many types of potential issues, besides DDs or die cracks.

For example, I have a coin that I suspect has a date overpunch (89 over 1889), but the clue is too small for me to identify.  Also, I have a coin that I purchased that I suspect may be of a die variety with a rarity rating of 4 and if all the clues are present, then I swill send it to PCGS\NGC for grading.

Edited November 13, 2023 by dprince1138

[VKurtB]

Object lesson: DO NOT WASTE TIME LOOKING FOR MINOR ERRORS AND VARIETIES!

[powermad5000]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:47 AM, dprince1138 said:

Personally, I would only send in a coin that has a die variety that is too small to verify

Reading is critical. You obviously did not read this entire thread. The OP lost a lot of money because there was nothing of significance on the coins. SMH!

[EagleRJO]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:48 AM, VKurtB said:

DO NOT WASTE TIME LOOKING FOR MINOR ERRORS AND VARIETIES!

I still enjoy looking for minor issues and varieties while roll hunting, but I don't share them here or submit them.  And maybe one day I will find that diamond in the ruff, but that's okay if I don't because I'm not expecting to find that.  I know you don't roll hunt so it's not likely you could get that it is interesting looking to others.

[Sandon]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, powermad5000 said:

Personally, I would only send in a coin that has a die variety that is too small to verify

   Then you would waste time and money, as grading services don't attribute varieties that are "too small to verify". "With few exceptions, NGC will not attribute die varieties that require greater than 5x magnification to be clearly recognizable." What is a Variety? | NGC (ngccoin.com).

[powermad5000]

Check my post @Sandon. I did not say that. Dprince1138 said that.

[Sandon]

   

On 11/13/2023 at 4:22 PM, powermad5000 said:

I did not say that. Dprince1138 said that.

   I know that and thought I quoted it out of his post. The computer sometimes does strange things.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:47 AM, dprince1138 said:

I would only send in a coin that has a die variety that is too small to verify ...

This has got to be in the top 10 most ridiculous things he has said.  

[VKurtB]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, EagleRJO said:

This has got to be in the top 10 most ridiculous things he has said.  

And that is from quite a field of candidates!!!