Luxembourg Commemorative Medal - how to find the person who wants it 1 1

[EagleRJO]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:22 PM, hr1704 said:

We know the silver and bronze have sold for well over the prices listed there

What have they sold for, and at what premium over melt, as that may give you a rough idea of a premium over melt for the commemorative gold medal to go with the NGC guide price.  Also keep in mind that circulation or business strike coins generally go for more than similar commemorative medals.

Edited October 6, 2023 by EagleRJO

[cobymordet]

I haven't seen any variants of this coin that have indicated an actual monetary value.  All of the variants I have seen have been labeled as medals.  That's why it is a bit confusing to me why there is an association of a monetary value.  Luxembourg had quite a few circulation coins celebrating the millennium anniversary with monetary values, but I found none identical to the design in question.  Has anyone seen this design with a monetary value on it?  I hope I didn't overlook that aspect of it.  Per Numista, (link below), mintage for the Gold (26mm) coin was 5000, Silver: 9000, Bronze: N/A.  Curiously, N/A for Gold or Silver Essai, but it does indicate 50 Essai in Bronze.  Outside of  Fenntucky's catalogue entry, I have not seen any reference to a 37mm 42g Gold coin anywhere.  That is what seems odd to me. 

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia111037.html

[hr1704]

I actually submitted my coin to the Numista site at that link a few days ago.  I said I have the gold version and supplied the pictures.  Someone responded within an hour saying they already have the gold version on the page.  I responded and said you have the 26mm on the page, mine is the 37mm.  I never heard back after that.

[cobymordet]

Wow, that is unfortunate.  Hope against hope that more and accurate information is provided by the mints involved with producing the coin.  At least you can assume that your coin is one of 50 or less based on the mintage of the bronze variant.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:58 PM, EagleRJO said:

And I think having some arbitrary value less than 250F may detract from the piece.

Maybe, but having no denomination attached at all is probably worse.

On 10/5/2023 at 5:58 PM, EagleRJO said:

Would you rather have a 1963 5 Francs Gold medal or 1963 250 Francs Gold coin, even though they may be about the same size and weight?

 

Totally viable argument but for two items I have zero association with I'd go with what I find more attractive, and to me the medal is the more attractive but that is also completely subjective. I would get more pleasure out of a piece I enjoy viewing as opposed to one I don't.

On 10/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, cobymordet said:

Has anyone seen this design with a monetary value on it?

I have not, but that doesn't mean one isn't assigned to them, arbitrary or not. Do sovereigns have a denomination on the coin? Nope.

The NGC price guide for world coins is terrible, it's pathetic, for trying to determine value on coins, at least in my experience and in the areas that I collect. I would only use it for researching coin types, identifying, and other such exercises, heck, half the time the images in the price guide are not of the actual coins listed. Anyway, as I've previously stated, I would consign this piece to auction as I think there is little downside in doing so, and I'm fairly optimistic that it will sell for above melt. If I was going to take a guess as to what this will go for in a well publicized auction of world coins and medals I would say in the 3000-4000 range, maybe more. Of course I could be completely wrong and this could sell for around melt but I would take my chances and, again, I don't see much risk in consigning this piece. My optimistic view is based on previous sales of the bronze and silver types, subject matter and country, artistic design/eye-appeal, availability/mintage, pm content, etc.. If the OP does consign this piece I hope they update this thread with auction estimate, where and when it's being auctioned and hammer price. Good luck. 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[EagleRJO]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:31 AM, cobymordet said:

At least you can assume that your coin is one of 50 or less based on the mintage of the bronze variant.

Not sure where that number came from, but even so it seems very unrealistic for the op's gold medal.  All the other 1963 Luxembourg gold medals, including similar Princess Ermesinde gold medals, had a mintage of like 5,000 to 25,000 which seems more likely in the ballpark.

On 10/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, cobymordet said:

haven't seen any variants of this coin that have indicated an actual monetary value.

I have not seen any issued as currency with a value, and the page Mike posted lists them as "Medallic Coinage" with curious figures, like the smallest 5 Franc amount for the largest medal which maybe someone could explain.  Silly French.  

On 10/6/2023 at 6:56 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I don't see much risk in consigning this piece

I think there is some risk as it is just a commemorative medal, and the only number I have found is the $2,000 NGC guide price with no auction house or eBay records.  Also other 1963 Luxembourg gold medals have recently sold for just a little over melt value.

It's not a popular piece, and unless the stars align and two people who really want this medal happen to find it and bid, which doesn't seem very likely, it may just go for around melt (total bid), as the dealers have offered the op.  Then you could end up with less than what dealers have offered when the buyers fee (likely ~15%) and sellers fee are subtracted.

I have been watching and buying a good amount of gold pieces and bullion coins over the years, and I think it would go for between melt and the NGC price from what I have seen.  I hope I'm wrong and it would go for the range indicated, but just wanted to offer the other side of the coin so to speak.  And it would be interesting to see what the op does end up with if they go the consignment route.

Edited October 8, 2023 by EagleRJO

[cobymordet]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:59 AM, EagleRJO said:

Not sure where that number came from, but even so it seems very unrealistic for the op's gold medal.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia111037.html

i cannot verify its accuracy, but the Numista site (link above) indicates the Bronze ESSAI variant has a mintage of 50.  I am making an assumption based on that number and extrapolating that the Silver ESSAI and Gold ESSAI variants will most likely have a mintage of 50 or less.  The mintage of the non-ESSAI variants were tiered: Bronze: N/A, Silver: 9K, Gold: 5K.  Guessing, educated or extrapolated, tends to be more exciting than the truth, if we will ever get it. . .the truth that is. . .

[hr1704]

My priorities for this coin would be in this order:

1) sell it to the person who really-really wants it for their collection so that it doesn't get melted
2) don't lose money.  I lost some in shipping and grading and will lose more in the auction cost (it was inherited so I don't really lose anything)
3) make huge money on a rare, high-desire coin

I have no problem sitting on this coin for years waiting for the right buyer.  There are many more coins in the inheritance that I'm going through and I'm starting to get obsessed with this stuff.  Thanks for all your help!  I'll update as much as I can.

[hr1704]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:59 AM, EagleRJO said:

All the other 1963 Luxembourg gold medals, including similar Princess Ermesinde gold medals, had a mintage of like 5,000 to 25,000 which seems more likely in the ballpark.

If there were 5,000 to 25,000, I think we would see some of them in the NGC census.

On 10/6/2023 at 6:59 AM, EagleRJO said:

I have not seen any issued as currency with a value, and the page Mike posted lists them as "Medallic Coinage" with curious figures, like the smallest 5 Franc amount for the largest medal which maybe someone could explain.  Silly French.  

The gold is only a trial coin.  Maybe they created the 5 franc gold trial, then changed direction and said: let's make the gold a 40 franc and make a silver 5 franc.  That would explain everything.

Edited October 6, 2023 by hr1704

[EagleRJO]

On 10/6/2023 at 11:21 AM, cobymordet said:

Gold ESSAI variants will most likely have a mintage of 50 or less

If you look closely there are two entries for the bronze medals, wilth a total likely considerably more than 50.  Also, from Mikes post with a catalog page the very similar 40F Gold Princess Ermesinde Essai medal that is also a trial strike had a mintage of 5,000, instead of the more typical 25,000, which seems more realistic a number.

About the curious figures it's possible they did a full 5,000 run and then started to run out of gold available as they struck more of the large medal, so they reduced the size to continue additional runs of smaller gold medals for that commemorative year.  If the first struck as others suggested it would make no sense they did a partrial run.

Also I don't think there is any direct correlation between census and mintage numbers, particularly for what is essentially a commemorative bullion medal.  And I just don't see it going for much over melt.

Good luck to the op and keep us posted.

Edited November 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

I have the paper (yes, old school 2000+ page book) The Standard Catalog of World Coins by Chester L Krause and Clifford Mishler 1981 Edition which I just drug up from the basement and tried to look this medal up. In the section for Medallic Issues, the book lists under Essais 1962 and 1964. and the section for With Essai (PE) (Double Thickness) the years 1962 and 1965. It is as if to this book that the 1963 year did not exist. 

[cobymordet]

So, it only took a month for one of the 2 banks to respond.  Unfortunately, the Belgium Mint has no available information regarding the Essai variation.  Yup, 28 day later for NADA.  I did re-send the email to Luxembourg Mint.  I may end up calling Luxembourg.  Basically, the coin might be quite rare. 

 

Apologies for this late reply to your request (which perhaps also has been answered meanwhile by our colleagues from Luxembourg).

Regarding the gold variation of the Millenium celebration coin (Ermesinde) produced in 1963 and commissioned by Banque International à Luxembourg, we were able to find the following information:

Design and engraving: Victor Zurn

Technical features:

• Weight: 12,90 g (gold)
• Diameter: 26 mm (gold)
• Edge: plain
• Metal: gold (Au 900)

Production number:

• 5,000 coins (gold)

Expect for the Silver (37mm) & Patined Silver (37mm) variations, no other versions have been found in our archives for this commemorative medal.

With kind regards

 

Royal Mint of Belgium

Federal Public Service Finance | Treasury | Royal Mint of Belgium

Kunstlaan 30, 1040 Brussels, Belgium

 

[hr1704]

Thanks @cobymordet.  Yes, that's the 26mm 40 franc gold version again. 

I finally got NGC to basically admit that they mislabeled the coin, so it's on its way back to be relabeled now.

I've also had a difficult time trying to get it added to this catalog:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia111037.html
But they recently let me know that they want me to create a new page just for this coin (even though there is a bronze essai on the existing page).

I haven't tried to contact Künker or Katz yet.

[VKurtB]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:57 PM, hr1704 said:

I'm still going to try to get an explanation or change from NGC.

Not their long suit. Many people. Very few authorized to answer questions.

[cobymordet]

Well, 2nd time is almost a charm. . . Got a response from Luxembourg Mint finally.

"...we have forwarded your email to our colleague who is in charge of the collector items. Due to the workload of this person, it might still take some time before being able to answer you.
Thank you very much for your patience and understanding.
kind regards
BCL

 

It ain't much, but it at least it is acknowledgement of receipt.  Cross yer fingers, toes, and elbows!  If we are lucky, we may hear back after apocalypse. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:37 AM, cobymordet said:

Well, 2nd time is almost a charm. . . Got a response from Luxembourg Mint finally.

"...we have forwarded your email to our colleague who is in charge of the collector items. Due to the workload of this person, it might still take some time before being able to answer you.
Thank you very much for your patience and understanding.
kind regards
BCL

 

It ain't much, but it at least it is acknowledgement of receipt.  Cross yer fingers, toes, and elbows!  If we are lucky, we may hear back after apocalypse. 

That IS progress. Congratulations.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 10/6/2023 at 2:58 PM, hr1704 said:

My priorities for this coin would be in this order:

1) sell it to the person who really-really wants it for their collection so that it doesn't get melted
2) don't lose money.  I lost some in shipping and grading and will lose more in the auction cost (it was inherited so I don't really lose anything)
3) make huge money on a rare, high-desire coin

I have no problem sitting on this coin for years waiting for the right buyer.  There are many more coins in the inheritance that I'm going through and I'm starting to get obsessed with this stuff.  Thanks for all your help!  I'll update as much as I can.

First, this is one of the best opening numismatic threads I have seen in a long time.  Thanks for this thread.

Second, thanks to folks like @Fenntucky Mike and others who really dug into this.  I learned things from this thread, and am curious to follow it.

Third, while I know nothing about your coin/medal, I advise you take option #4, and sit on the coin for a while.  If you are starting to like coins, it would be fun to learn and solve a puzzle.  Besides, I am sure your spouse would love to hear more about their father's coins over dinner as you learn.  If the rest of the collection is obscure, it may take a while.  If you are in no hurry, enjoy it and you have nice material in your hands to study.... why not enjoy it and get to know your FIL through his collection? As you learn, you will likely find common threads in the collection (this may help you to better sell, or collect them yourself ).

Enjoy and good luck!

 

[hr1704]

I don't think my FIL was extremely knowledgeable in numismatics.  He liked gold coins for sure.  He had a bunch of buttons from gold coins.  I don't know if he bought them or had them made.  Here are some of the buttons he had.

Is this considered desecration in the numismatic world?

[cobymordet]

Can you take individual pictures front and back of a couple of different ones? To get a better look at them.

[hr1704]

Everything in that picture is gone already.  I researched them best I could and deemed them as 'melters'. 

Someone told me the dark ones look to be artificially darkened and are plentiful in Italy for tourist sales. 

[cobymordet]

I hope they weren't real coins, that would be an unfortunate waste.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/8/2023 at 8:55 PM, cobymordet said:

I hope they weren't real coins, that would be an unfortunate waste.

Doesn't sound like super rare coins, and if they were made into buttons even real coins would be damaged and essentially bullion.

[hr1704]

The button-coins were either not rare or badly worn out or both.  The dealer I sold them to said he might resell them as buttons but are only worth the melt value.

Ironically, the original coin in this thread is MS65 and appears to be the only known version of it in gold.  Some people still think it's only worth melt value. 

I'm sad for every one of these coins that lasted all these years only to be chucked into a furnace and melted.  That's why I'm trying to find someone who really wants this Luxembourg coin.

I'm a noob and should probably learn not to be sentimental about it.

[cobymordet]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:27 PM, hr1704 said:

I'm a noob and should probably learn not to be sentimental about it.

I would assume that sentimentality grows as the collector grows with the hobby.  There is too much to learn and understand not to form a bond of sorts, if only just an appreciation of the collection amassed.  I am not sure how financially lucrative collecting coins is within a given lifetime.  I would also imagine there are quicker and better ways to make a buck, if making a buck is the only goal.  On a side note, I think there is more than 1 of the 37mm gold essai coins, I will guess 5-10.  Hopefully, we will get that nugget of information before you give in and melt it.  LOL,  patience grasshopper. 

[J P M]

On 11/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, hr1704 said:

The button-coins were either not rare or badly worn out or both.  The dealer I sold them to said he might resell them as buttons but are only worth the melt value.

Ironically, the original coin in this thread is MS65 and appears to be the only known version of it in gold.  Some people still think it's only worth melt value. 

I'm sad for every one of these coins that lasted all these years only to be chucked into a furnace and melted.  That's why I'm trying to find someone who really wants this Luxembourg coin.

I'm a noob and should probably learn not to be sentimental about it.

I don't think the coins were melted it is just what they call the value of the coin . Some of those coins look good enough to resell at melt or a bit more.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, hr1704 said:

The dealer I sold them to said he might resell them as buttons but are only worth the melt value.

There are people who collect old antique buttons, but it would really be a shot in the dark unless they were from a recognized maker which they don't appear to be.  So the dealer offering melt value to possibly sell the buttons as a precious metal novelty item makes sense to me.

On 11/9/2023 at 2:27 PM, hr1704 said:

I'm a noob and should probably learn not to be sentimental about it.

About the original medal, it may have legitimate sentimental value to either you or your wife since it was from your father-in-law.  I still have letters that were in my fathers files which are completely worthless to anyone other than me.  But if he had a large collection where you are just selecting a handful of coins to keep I don't know if a modern commemorative bullion medal from a year they went nuts with those would be in the category of being a "keeper". 

Edited November 10, 2023 by EagleRJO

[hr1704]

I got the coin back after asking for it to be relabeled.  It's almost the same.  They didn't label it in the way I thought it should be.  (I wanted it to be like the silver and bronze versions of the same thing)  They also didn't offer any explanation.  In the face of inconsistency I would think they would be quick to offer an explanation.  Does NGC have an ego problem?

[EagleRJO]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:48 PM, hr1704 said:

They didn't label it in the way I thought it should be.  (I wanted it to be like the silver and bronze versions of the same thing) ... In the face of [inconsistency] I would think they would be quick to offer an explanation.  Does NGC have an ego problem?

NGC doesn't just label graded coins the way each person wants, or that would create a monster without any consistency for various series. I think they were pretty accommodating revising the label for your medal and it now has the denomination as well as an identification that it's medallic coinage.

I think the revised label is now pretty consistent with a handful of other similar 1963 Lux gold medals I saw, like the two attached.  And it now has more information than the label for the 1963 bronze medal, except that it just doesn't have a KM or X number which typically isn't included on their labels and can always be added to a listing description if so desired.

I assume you are jumping through all these hoops as you intend to sell the medal, and I am curious what venue you selected to accomplish that.  Also, maybe you could check back in after it's sold as I think it would be interesting to see what it goes for.

[hr1704]

Wow, did they mislabel that 2nd image as GOLF instead of GOLD?!?  Plus the coin wasn't centered properly.  Maybe their label and packaging people aren't exactly the best and brightest.  This should be embarrassing for them.  I think we as the customers of this service should be holding their feet to the fire instead of apologizing for them.

Edited December 8, 2023 by hr1704

[hr1704]

On 12/7/2023 at 10:44 PM, EagleRJO said:

I assume you are jumping through all these hoops as you intend to sell the medal, and I am curious what venue you selected to accomplish that.  Also, maybe you could check back in after it's sold as I think it would be interesting to see what it goes for.

I have some other coins that I need to get graded.  They are all gold, non-US coins and some of them are "unusual" like this Luxembourg coin.  If I don't want them to simply be melted, I think my only options are Heritage or Kunker.  I don't have a reputation on Ebay and don't want to offer returns, so I think that's out.