1978-D Roosevelt Dime What is going on with the "IN GOD WE TRUST"? 0

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

If I need to post a better picture let me know. Thank you.

[Coinbuf]

Severe die deterioration, but it is an interesting one.

[Greenstang]

It is suffering deterioration on both sides of the coin.
Guess the mint was trying to get its monies worth out of that set of dies.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Agree, die deterioration and probably a little damage mixed in. 

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:45 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Agree, die deterioration and probably a little damage mixed in. 

Wasn't sure that's why I put the rim. It's not dinged or anything or pushed inward. The line also goes through the top of LIBERTY but it didn't mess anything up. So I thought it was possibly an alignment issue. 

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:36 PM, Coinbuf said:

Severe die deterioration, but it is an interesting one.

Yeah, I thought it was interesting.

[Coinbuf]

On 8/31/2023 at 3:16 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Yeah, I thought it was interesting.

As dies (and masters) get used and overused there is a propensity for the design elements to move out toward the rim.   You see this on many Lincoln cents from the 60's because the master had been used for so long and the lettering began to merge with the rim even on relatively early die strikes.   We see a few examples like that posted with the same questions, is this an error.    One of the clear signs of die overuse on your coin is the heavy and coarse flow lines you see in the field radiating towards the rim, classic sign of an overused die.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

I was thinking it was something along with what you said. Figured I better ask someone more knowledgeable just in case. In the flip it goes 

[EagleRJO]

Seems to me that if a coin is missing legally required lettering, regardless of it being caused by misaligned dies from the hubbing or misaligned dies in the coining press, that it would still be considered an error coin, although a minor one in this case.  Not sure if either way it would be referred to as a MAD, although I think that is intended to refer to misaligned dies in the coining press.

It also seems more likely to have occurred at a coining press, particularly with over-used worn dies that can work loose, as opposed to that occurred during the hubbing process and either someone at the mint not looking at the results of the master hubbing or worse looking at the results and calling an offset like that good.  At least up until the last few years where quality at the mint actually meant something.

Edited August 31, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mike Meenderink]

With the severely worn dies creating this terribly struck coin the obverse die appears to have loosened in the hub and tilted in the 9 o'clock direction creating this distortion. It is a mint error but not exactly rare. Many US coin series have these late stage die deterioration coins that got free.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:47 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

With the severely worn dies creating this terribly struck coin the obverse die appears to have loosened in the hub and tilted in the 9 o'clock direction creating this distortion. It is a mint error but not exactly rare. Many US coin series have these late stage die deterioration coins that got free.

Thought it was fairly common. Don't have one and just wanted an idea of what it was before putting it with the rest of my oddballs. Thank you.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:36 PM, EagleRJO said:

Seems to me that if a coin is missing legally required lettering, regardless of it being caused by misaligned dies from the hubbing or misaligned dies in the coining press, that it would still be considered an error coin, although a minor one in this case.  Not sure if either way it would be referred to as a MAD, although I think that is intended to refer to misaligned dies in the coining press.

It also seems more likely to have occurred at a coining press, particularly with over-used worn dies that can work loose, as opposed to that occurred during the hubbing process and either someone at the mint not looking at the results of the master hubbing or worse looking at the results and calling an offset like that good.  At least up until the last few years where quality at the mint actually meant something.

Thought it was a minor common error but wanted to ask. From what I found it could be caused by all kinds of issues. I thought it was something like die deterioration or misalignment possibly both. Going with the rest of my oddballs.

[powermad5000]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:47 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

It is a mint error

It is NOT a mint error. I have a 1977 D Roosy with better overall details that graded as MS 61. I submitted it as a mint error because it had roughly the same amount of lettering cut off. It returned straight graded with the explanation of "slightly misaligned die - too minor".

[EagleRJO]

On 9/1/2023 at 12:45 AM, powermad5000 said:

It is NOT a mint error

There are coins that meet mint tolerances and specifications (non-errors), coins with minor errors that are not significant enough to be certified by a TPG, and coins with errors that are significant enough to be certified by a TPG.

I think the op's coin falls into the middle category, along with coins that have die rotations slightly less than 15 degrees.

[Mike Meenderink]

Errors are all coins that did not meet quality control standards whether minor or major. Any coin with a mint defect is an error coin. TPGs do not state the minor errors or count them as attributed errors but they are still sub standard coins that ARE errors. Simple logic. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[VKurtB]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:05 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Errors are all coins that did not meet quality control standards whether minor or major. Any coin with a mint defect is and error coin. Just because TPGs do not state the minor errors or count them as attributed errors but they are still sub standard coins that ARE errors. Simple logic. 

Mike is right about one thing - his logic is unbelievably “simple”. In fact, a ton simple. Simple ton. Simpleton. Poor quality control does NOT count as an error, and never has in this hobby. Check ANY serious source on errors. Mike can, and has, redefine things the way he likes, for himself, but he doesn’t get to speak for the hobby in general.

Edited September 2, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:05 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Errors are all coins that did not meet quality control standards whether minor or major. Any coin with a mint defect is an error coin. TPGs do not state the minor errors or count them as attributed errors but they are still sub standard coins that ARE errors.

Coins that fall under the "too minor" tolerances are another way of the TPG saying the coin falls into mint tolerances. And anything that falls under mint tolerances is NOT an error, no matter how bad you want it to be. Please stop fueling the nonsense seen on here by people posting every minor thing as an error and then you backing up their already misinformed view.

[Mike Meenderink]

@powermad5000TPGs do not get to decide if a coin is a mint error they only get to decide which ones they will recognize, grade and encapsulate. I refute your assertion I am fueling any non sense. Minor or major an error is an error no matter HOW BAD you want it not to be. You can argue in the face of logic but its not recommended. Most that take this route appear foolish.

[powermad5000]

On 9/3/2023 at 7:28 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

You can argue in the face of logic

According to your logic, then, a coin that has a misalignment of either die by 0.00001% is an error because it is not perfectly centered. So, also according to your logic then we have to tell everyone who comes on this board that a coin that is not perfect in every respect is now an error coin. SMH! I am not arguing anything. I am stating facts only.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/4/2023 at 2:57 AM, powermad5000 said:

According to your logic, then, a coin that has a misalignment of either die by 0.00001% is an error because it is not perfectly centered.

I'm not going to validate pointless argumentative comments by others, but you are correct that small of a die rotation would not be an error, as the US mint reportedly used 5 degrees as an acceptable die rotation (e.g. Coin World Almanac, 8th Ed, Pg 370).

So anything between a 6 degree and slightly less than 15 degree die rotation would be an error (although minor) since it did not meet mint specs, but would not be attributed by a TPG like NGC since it wasn't a die rotation of at least 15 degrees.

https://www.ngccoin.uk/news/article/7765/learn-grading-mint-errors-part-1/

[VKurtB]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:57 AM, powermad5000 said:

According to your logic, then, a coin that has a misalignment of either die by 0.00001% is an error because it is not perfectly centered. So, also according to your logic then we have to tell everyone who comes on this board that a coin that is not perfect in every respect is now an error coin. SMH! I am not arguing anything. I am stating facts only.

Good argument. Only those trying to create a bogus market for “errors which are not” would disagree.