Conder Tokens 1 1

[Hoghead515]

Ive looked at condor tokens a few times and found them fun to look through. They would probably be fun to assemble a collection of them. Ive given it thought from time to time but I got so many different things started now I still havent finished. Maybe one of these days. My question is, were they ever used here as currency before a mint was established? I know of a few other forms of currency that was but Ive wondered if any of those tokens was ever used to barter with in this country in the 1700s. I figured some of you on here would know from your years of collecting and knowledge. If anyone has anything else related to condor tokens other than the question I asked feel free to share it. Myself and probably others would love to know all sorts of history about them. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Hoghead515

[zadok]

On 8/30/2023 at 5:40 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive looked at condor tokens a few times and found them fun to look through. They would probably be fun to assemble a collection of them. Ive given it thought from time to time but I got so many different things started now I still havent finished. Maybe one of these days. My question is, were they ever used here as currency before a mint was established? I know of a few other forms of currency that was but Ive wondered if any of those tokens was ever used to barter with in this country in the 1700s. I figured some of you on here would know from your years of collecting and knowledge. If anyone has anything else related to condor tokens other than the question I asked feel free to share it. Myself and probably others would love to know all sorts of history about them. 

...im not aware of any explicit references to them being used in the US colonial or early federal currency exchanges but anything is possible during that age of limited communication n high incidences of various currencies being accepted, of course a person not being able to read could add to the confusion n acceptance of any token as money...im in same boat as u im not very familiar with these n have not studied them or their usage, i own only one condor token...perhaps Condor101 will answer ur question much better than i....

[Hoghead515]

Looking at them it looks like you can collect them fairly cheap in circulated condition. Ive seen a few I really like. I actually bid on one several months ago. It was one with a crane on it. It was in decent shape. I was the only bidder for days and it got all the way down to the last 3 seconds and someone out bid me. I was so excited because I really wanted it and thought it was gonna be mine. I was a little heartbroken when they sniped it out under my nose. But thats the nature of the beast. I always wondered if it may have been the owner not wanting to let it go so cheap. But I dont think it was because I never seen it come up for sale again. I wish I had bid a few dollars over the minimum bid just in case. But hind sight is 20/20 as the old saying goes. Im still happy someone got to add that beauty to their collection even though it wasnt me. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Hoghead515

[Hoghead515]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:20 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Looking at them it looks like you can collect them fairly cheap in circulated condition. Ive seen a few I really like. I actually bid on one several months ago. It was one with a crane on it. It was in decent shape. I was the only bidder for days and it got all the way down to the last 3 seconds and someone out bid me. I was so excited because I really wanted it and thought it was gonna be mine. I was a little heartbroken when they sniped it out under my nose. But thats the nature of the beast. I always wondered if it may have been the owner not wanting to let it go so cheap. But I dont think it was because I never seen it come up for sale again. I wish I had bid a few dollars over the minimum bid just in case. But hind sight is 20/20 as the old saying goes. Im still happy someone got to add that beauty to their collection even though it wasnt me. 

I actually just looked on Ebay and found the same exact token. Only its got a $65 price tag on it now. If Id got it in that auction Id got it for less than half that last time. 

[Sandon]

   This is a great topic, @Hoghead515, but I think that they're called Conder tokens, not Condor tokens.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conder_token.  Condors are large vulture-like birds found in California and the Andes. I don't know whether there are any Conder tokens that depict a condor.

[Hoghead515]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:09 PM, Sandon said:

   This is a great topic, @Hoghead515, but I think that they're called Conder tokens, not Condor tokens.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conder_token.  Condors are large vulture-like birds found in California and the Andes. I don't know whether there are any Conder tokens that depict a condor.

Spelling is definately not one of my strong points. Thank you Sandon. Ill remember that for now on. I was spelling nickel wrong there for a long time until someone on the forum corrected me. I was spelling it nickle. Now Ive spelled it the correct way since. I apoligize to anyone if I ever spell anything incorrectly. I didnt get a very good education here out in the country. I graduated high school but our school system didnt teach us a whole lot of grammer. I dont think half the teachers around here could spell neither.  Not only have I learned alot about numismatics on this forum Ive also learned how to spell several words. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Hoghead515

[Hoghead515]

In that article where it talks about classification.  Does that mean theres 72 varieties of these tokens that were struck? I seen where it said some are very rare. That would be quite a feat to try and put a whole set together. Thats some interesting history behind them. Thanks for sharing @Sandon

[CIII]

That's pretty interesting.  I have a few American tokens but have yet to really look at the English ones.  

[Sandon]

    I'm glad you didn't take any offense, Hoghead.  My late mother continually corrected everyone's spelling, grammar, and diction; and I can't help but do it as well.  I don't know whether it's hereditary or just out of habit.  A member of my local coin club also transposes the last two letters of the word "nickel" and persists in doing so even though I've politely attempted to corrected him. At times, it makes me want to scream!

On 8/30/2023 at 7:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Does that mean theres 72 varieties of these tokens that were struck?

   As the previously linked Wikipedia article indicates, Conder tokens are named after James Conder (1761-1823), who collected and initially cataloged these late eighteenth century tradesmen's tokens, which were issued due to a severe shortage of coins in Britain at that time. There are thousands of different designs. The numbers 1-72 on the left side of the chart refer to individual counties to which tokens can be attributed, with the name of the county in the second column, and the number of different token designs in the third. Just for county number 21, Middlesex, there appear to be 1,174 different types of tokens known. They were avidly collected even at the time they were issued, so there are many pieces in or near uncirculated condition. Many of these tokens were made at Matthew Boulton's Soho mint, which also supplied many planchets for early U.S. half cents and large cents.

[Hoghead515]

On 8/30/2023 at 8:47 PM, Sandon said:

    I'm glad you didn't take any offense, Hoghead.  My late mother continually corrected everyone's spelling, grammar, and diction; and I can't help but do it as well.  I don't know whether it's hereditary or just out of habit.  A member of my local coin club also transposes the last two letters of the word "nickel" and persists in doing so even though I've politely attempted to corrected him. At times, it makes me want to scream!

   As the previously linked Wikipedia article indicates, Conder tokens are named after James Conder (1761-1823), who collected and initially cataloged these late eighteenth century tradesmen's tokens, which were issued due to a severe shortage of coins in Britain at that time. There are thousands of different designs. The numbers 1-72 on the left side of the chart refer to individual counties to which tokens can be attributed, with the name of the county in the second column, and the number of different token designs in the third. Just for county number 21, Middlesex, there appear to be 1,174 different types of tokens known. They were avidly collected even at the time they were issued, so there are many pieces in or near uncirculated condition. Many of these tokens were made at Matthew Boulton's Soho mint, which also supplied many planchets for early U.S. half cents and large cents.

Oh no I dont take offence at all. I like when people correct me so I can learn from it. I apriceate it when people correct me and try to teach me the proper spelling, proper terms, etc.  Theres very little that I take offence to. Im probably one of the easiest going people you will ever meet. Thank you for teaching me the proper spelling of them. Never know I may have used that term later on and someone may think Im talking about a token with a big buzzard looking bird on it. 

Thanks for sharing that info. I never realized there were so many of them. It would bout be impossible to collect them all. I was reading that chart wrong. Thats crazy. Hard telling how many engravers there were engraving the dies for them. That opens up a massive opportunity for collectors to start a collection of them. So many ways. Collect by countries or just however they would want to go about it. The more Im learning about these the more Im talking myself into wanting to start a set of them myself. If I do I probably wont go about it in any particular way. Probably just pick ones I like,  put them in cardboard flips, and put them in a box labeled Conder tokens. I find several of the designs very facinating. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Hoghead515

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

@Conder101 I am like Hog, I don't know much about Conder Tokens, but think they are cool.  Can you shed any light on Hog's question in regard to whether Conder Tokens were used as currency in the United States in pre-federal, colonial times?

[Redline68]

On 8/30/2023 at 11:34 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

@Conder101 I am like Hog, I don't know much about Conder Tokens, but think they are cool.  Can you shed any light on Hog's question in regard to whether Conder Tokens were used as currency in the United States in pre-federal, colonial times?

Per Will Nipper's book "In Yankee Doodle's Pocket", some Conder tokens did circulate in America but most emerged too late to circulate in large quantities.

[zadok]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:01 AM, Redline68 said:

Per Will Nipper's book "In Yankee Doodle's Pocket", some Conder tokens did circulate in America but most emerged too late to circulate in large quantities.

...true the timing wasnt ideal for circulation in colonies n the fact that the conders were of different denominations n different size diameters from the accustomed sizes may have had an impact, just speculating no hard evidence to support that....

[farthing]

Great Britain has a long history of not producing enough small currency to support the needs of commerce.  Notable periods of the populace resorting to the use of tokens to facilitate trade include the 1660's, 1790's and the 1810's, each of which have a vast variety of tokens to collect and many ardent collectors.  Properly the tokens from the 1790's are '18th Century Provincial Token Coinage'  but commonly referred to in the US as 'Conder' tokens after James Conder.  James was not the first contemporary cataloger of the tokens but his was the first work used widely by collectors.  His book was subsequently replaced by James Atkins book 'Tradesmen's Tokens of the 18th Century' and finally by the Dalton & Hamer book 'The Provincial Token Coinage of the 18th Century'

Many of the tokens were used in commerce (genuine trade tokens or GTT) while others were general tokens for trade, political tokens, private tokens, and medaletts made for collectors.  They were actively collected in the 1790's which helps account to the huge numbers still found in mint condition.

There are more than 1000 varieties of GTT

If you would like to see some of the variety of tokens my Registry collection of these tokens can be found here: https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=1394

[Hoghead515]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:34 AM, farthing said:

Great Britain has a long history of not producing enough small currency to support the needs of commerce.  Notable periods of the populace resorting to the use of tokens to facilitate trade include the 1660's, 1790's and the 1810's, each of which have a vast variety of tokens to collect and many ardent collectors.  Properly the tokens from the 1790's are '18th Century Provincial Token Coinage'  but commonly referred to in the US as 'Conder' tokens after James Conder.  James was not the first contemporary cataloger of the tokens but his was the first work used widely by collectors.  His book was subsequently replaced by James Atkins book 'Tradesmen's Tokens of the 18th Century' and finally by the Dalton & Hamer book 'The Provincial Token Coinage of the 18th Century'

Many of the tokens were used in commerce (genuine trade tokens or GTT) while others were general tokens for trade, political tokens, private tokens, and medaletts made for collectors.  They were actively collected in the 1790's which helps account to the huge numbers still found in mint condition.

There are more than 1000 varieties of GTT

If you would like to see some of the variety of tokens my Registry collection of these tokens can be found here: https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=1394

Thank you for sharing.  That is a very impressive collection. I love how detailed it is and the work and research you put into it. Ive been wanting to learn more about these and your registry set is very helpful. 

[zadok]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:40 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Thank you for sharing.  That is a very impressive collection. I love how detailed it is and the work and research you put into it. Ive been wanting to learn more about these and your registry set is very helpful. 

...hog let me throw out a food for though comment...since u seem intrigued by the british trade n conder tokens n considering where u live n the fact u seldom get to many coin shows in person, perhaps u mite consider a more available but similar collecting endeavor...US mine store tokens, particularly from ur n my area, appalachia, plus u already r collecting KY store card tokens...there r literally thousands of collectable examples if u consider all mines n denominations...there is a published catalog of these tokens n i believe i have a couple copies of it, if u decide to pursue ill mail u a copy...just as i mentioned, food for thought...more mine tokens than british trade tokens in KY....

[Jason Abshier]

@Hoghead515 conder tokens were more of of European thing back in 17th-18th century or perhaps earlier … they were made by small mints to cover small denomination coinage shortage in certain areas …. Tokens are a whole collecting ball game of its own (often under appreciated and over looked by collectors)  , there are books and catalogs on tokens some are rare other aren’t worth much at all .. it’s almost like collecting German Notgeld coinage after WW1 going into Weimar republic years tons and tons of different designs on Notgeld coinage each territory had their own minted coin and design,  mostly made of brass , iron and porcelain coinage nice examples are worthy and other examples are worth nothing I have a catalog about 700 pages full of German Notgeld coinage…. Hard to believe they pumped out that much coinage in short era before third reich rises in power for WW2 
 

As for USA, I have no information if they used private Conder tokens to barter for goods in the colonial times ? 

[Hoghead515]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:58 AM, zadok said:

...hog let me throw out a food for though comment...since u seem intrigued by the british trade n conder tokens n considering where u live n the fact u seldom get to many coin shows in person, perhaps u mite consider a more available but similar collecting endeavor...US mine store tokens, particularly from ur n my area, appalachia, plus u already r collecting KY store card tokens...there r literally thousands of collectable examples if u consider all mines n denominations...there is a published catalog of these tokens n i believe i have a couple copies of it, if u decide to pursue ill mail u a copy...just as i mentioned, food for thought...more mine tokens than british trade tokens in KY....

Ive look at several of those and Ive thought about it for a long time. I enjoy collecting local tokens of any type. I just may consider doing that. I think its neat where we work all over Ky getting to see some of the little towns Ive got tokens that was from there. We see old shut down coal mines everywhere. See several reclaimed strip jobs also. Thats interesting how the miners used those tokens to get food and supplies.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Hoghead515

[Conder101]

While some Conder tokens may have traveled over here it would just be a small number and not any organized shipment of tokens  (Closest connection would be the Talbot Alum & Lee tokens of Philadelphia which were produced in England by the same firms that were producing Conder tokens and the those dies can be found muled with dies used for other Conder tokens.  The Conder tokens didn't begin until 1787 and most of them were struck in the 1793 - 1797 period by which time out mint was already in operation.  There were some pieces that were struck in an attempt to secure a coinage contract to produce  our coinage.  If you look at the Washington pieces in the redbook many of those are actually Conder tokens and the reverse dies were muled with other Conder token dies as well.  Other Conder tokens listed in the Redbook include the Kentucky Cent, the Theatre at New York token (The reverse is a Conder token die) and the Franklin Press token.

As to the GTT (Genuine Trade Tokens ) which is what I mainly collect, I only collect those from the English counties and I don't collect all the edge varieties just the obv/rev combinations.  There are 658 different GTT tokens of which I have 558 of them.

Overall, including edge varieties, there are very close to 5,000 Conder token varieties.  The most complete collection I knew of was Robinson S Brown's collection.  He has something like 4,800 of them.  I know of a couple other collections in the 3,000 piece range.

Even after all this time there are still new discoveries that can be made, I have discovered four new obv/rev die pairings and at least two known varieties with new edge varieites.

There are many ways you can collect the tokens.  My first goal as just one token from each of the 39 English counties.  About 35 of them are pretty easy, three of them are tough, one you are almost certainly not going to get.  Leicestershire,  There are only 18 tokens from that county.  Not 18 varieties, 18 tokens total from two different varieties.  You could pick a county and try to get a token from each of the cities that issued a token.  There are many individual "series that a popularly collected such as the tokens for Pidcock Exhibition.  Pidcock had a menagerie and produced  tokens with many of the animals on them and there are various pairing obv/rev of these animals and the were issued as both half pence and farthings. There are probably better than 30 differnt Pidcock tokens.  Another series I collect are what are called Skidmore's Churches and Gates. Skidmore was a prolific issuer of tokens for various things adn one of them was a series of tokens that pictured every Chuch within, and every Gate through the old Walled City of London (The Old city of London was the original walled city located within todays London.  It covers one square mile..)  There are 128 churches and gates in the series, I have over 80 of them.  They are very nice and with issued in proof or prooflike condition.  Something else I collect are the Lady Godivia tokens from the city of Coventry in Warwickshire.  Everyone knows the story of Lady Godiva, will in 1792 the city produced alarge numbers of tokens with the city arms on one side and Lady Godiva on the other.  They were very popular and were widely used.  This attracted the attention of counterfeiters and they produced their own tokens in 1793.  The problem was the 1792 issue was enough for the city and they didn't make any 1793 tokens.  So all 1792 tokens are genuine, and all 1793 tokens are contemporary counterfeits.  I have all of the 1792 vareites and I lack one 1793 variety.  (The standard reference Dalton & Hamer catalogs both genuine and contemporary counterfeit Conder tokens.)  There are many other ways or series you can collect in the Conders.

In circulated condition the Conders as still relatively cheap, but not like they were when I started seriously collecting them back in 1997.  Back then uncirculated  common tokens could be had for $20 apiece.  Today I doubt you could get an uncirculated for under $200 to $250 dollars. (a bit pricy, but if they were Unc large cent from the same era you would be looking in mid five figures.)  But circulated pieces can still be had for $30 to $50 dollars.  I wish I had bought more back then, or had started buying Conders when I first started collecting.  Back them Unc's were $2 each and mint red coins were $3

 

 

[Hoghead515]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:37 AM, Conder101 said:

While some Conder tokens may have traveled over here it would just be a small number and not any organized shipment of tokens  (Closest connection would be the Talbot Alum & Lee tokens of Philadelphia which were produced in England by the same firms that were producing Conder tokens and the those dies can be found muled with dies used for other Conder tokens.  The Conder tokens didn't begin until 1787 and most of them were struck in the 1793 - 1797 period by which time out mint was already in operation.  There were some pieces that were struck in an attempt to secure a coinage contract to produce  our coinage.  If you look at the Washington pieces in the redbook many of those are actually Conder tokens and the reverse dies were muled with other Conder token dies as well.  Other Conder tokens listed in the Redbook include the Kentucky Cent, the Theatre at New York token (The reverse is a Conder token die) and the Franklin Press token.

As to the GTT (Genuine Trade Tokens ) which is what I mainly collect, I only collect those from the English counties and I don't collect all the edge varieties just the obv/rev combinations.  There are 658 different GTT tokens of which I have 558 of them.

Overall, including edge varieties, there are very close to 5,000 Conder token varieties.  The most complete collection I knew of was Robinson S Brown's collection.  He has something like 4,800 of them.  I know of a couple other collections in the 3,000 piece range.

Even after all this time there are still new discoveries that can be made, I have discovered four new obv/rev die pairings and at least two known varieties with new edge varieites.

There are many ways you can collect the tokens.  My first goal as just one token from each of the 39 English counties.  About 35 of them are pretty easy, three of them are tough, one you are almost certainly not going to get.  Leicestershire,  There are only 18 tokens from that county.  Not 18 varieties, 18 tokens total from two different varieties.  You could pick a county and try to get a token from each of the cities that issued a token.  There are many individual "series that a popularly collected such as the tokens for Pidcock Exhibition.  Pidcock had a menagerie and produced  tokens with many of the animals on them and there are various pairing obv/rev of these animals and the were issued as both half pence and farthings. There are probably better than 30 differnt Pidcock tokens.  Another series I collect are what are called Skidmore's Churches and Gates. Skidmore was a prolific issuer of tokens for various things adn one of them was a series of tokens that pictured every Chuch within, and every Gate through the old Walled City of London (The Old city of London was the original walled city located within todays London.  It covers one square mile..)  There are 128 churches and gates in the series, I have over 80 of them.  They are very nice and with issued in proof or prooflike condition.  Something else I collect are the Lady Godivia tokens from the city of Coventry in Warwickshire.  Everyone knows the story of Lady Godiva, will in 1792 the city produced alarge numbers of tokens with the city arms on one side and Lady Godiva on the other.  They were very popular and were widely used.  This attracted the attention of counterfeiters and they produced their own tokens in 1793.  The problem was the 1792 issue was enough for the city and they didn't make any 1793 tokens.  So all 1792 tokens are genuine, and all 1793 tokens are contemporary counterfeits.  I have all of the 1792 vareites and I lack one 1793 variety.  (The standard reference Dalton & Hamer catalogs both genuine and contemporary counterfeit Conder tokens.)  There are many other ways or series you can collect in the Conders.

In circulated condition the Conders as still relatively cheap, but not like they were when I started seriously collecting them back in 1997.  Back then uncirculated  common tokens could be had for $20 apiece.  Today I doubt you could get an uncirculated for under $200 to $250 dollars. (a bit pricy, but if they were Unc large cent from the same era you would be looking in mid five figures.)  But circulated pieces can still be had for $30 to $50 dollars.  I wish I had bought more back then, or had started buying Conders when I first started collecting.  Back them Unc's were $2 each and mint red coins were $3

 

 

Thank you for the information. Its always great to hear your advice and information you share. Thats a very impressive collection you have going on. Im thinking about buying a couple I really like just to have a couple in my collection. Ive always had an interest in them since I first discovered them for myself. I actually first discovered them on Ebay and then wanted to know more about them. I really think Im gonna take @zadok advice and collect mine -script tokens. Ive thought about it for quite a while now. I didnt know they were all catologued where a person can use it as a guide and look for them until he shared the post above. Espically since several of them are from right around my area. I could probably do some digging in some of the towns Im in working all the time and maybe find local dealers who have them. There are numerous amounts on Ebay also. 

Im still gonna collect a few of the Conders as I get the chance. Ill probably have to get them in circulated condition. Im really wanting to find that one with the stork on it that I missed out on in that auction. I found the same one with a $65 price tag but Im gonna try hold off and find it cheaper later on. There are a few of the Conders I really like. Im glad I started this thread because I learned a whole lot from it that I didnt know. I never knew there were so many varieties. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:31 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive look at several of those and Ive thought about it for a long time. I enjoy collecting local tokens of any type. I just may consider doing that. I think its neat where we work all over Ky getting to see some of the little towns Ive got tokens that was from there. We see old shut down coal mines everywhere. See several reclaimed strip jobs also. Thats interesting how the miners used those tokens to get food and supplies.

Tokens are going strong right now HH, I'd plan on spending a $100 for some of these at auction, especially late 19th - early 20th century examples. Some of the lumber, coal/mining, and RR tokens for MI are selling in the mid to high three figures, some hitting four, I imagine similar KY tokens are probably around the same.   Still, there will be plenty of the more readily available and modern type tokens that can be had for around $20 or less. Tokens of any type are a great supplement to a coin collection, or even choosing to focus primarily on them with coins on the backburner. Regardless, I know you'll have fun with whichever you pick and I look forward to seeing the examples you acquire. Good Luck. 

[Hoghead515]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:40 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Tokens are going strong right now HH, I'd plan on spending a $100 for some of these at auction, especially late 19th - early 20th century examples. Some of the lumber, coal/mining, and RR tokens for MI are selling in the mid to high three figures, some hitting four, I imagine similar KY tokens are probably around the same.   Still, there will be plenty of the more readily available and modern type tokens that can be had for around $20 or less. Tokens of any type are a great supplement to a coin collection, or even choosing to focus primarily on them with coins on the backburner. Regardless, I know you'll have fun with whichever you pick and I look forward to seeing the examples you acquire. Good Luck. 

Ive been looking on Ebay just at the local coal company tokens. There is plenty of them. Ive noticed a few in flips with R5 on them. Does anyone know what that means? Is that a rarity number. Theres much I need to learn about these. I found one token from the county Im originally from. Carter County. Im gonna try and bid on it. There were several old clay mines around carter county. It sounds like a fun project to collect them and share the fun with my sons. Maybe help us learn more of the history and locations from our home state together. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:07 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Is that a rarity number.

Yep, 1-10, 1 being the most common, 10 being extremely rare or possibly unique. 

On 9/4/2023 at 10:07 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Theres much I need to learn about these. I found one token from the county Im originally from. Carter County. Im gonna try and bid on it. There were several old clay mines around carter county. It sounds like a fun project to collect them and share the fun with my sons. Maybe help us learn more of the history and locations from our home state together. 

An amazing amount of local history wrapped up in tokens, lots to research and learn. They are a blast. I primarily focus on tokens from the county I live in but I've pretty much reached the end of that and have started dabbling in lumber tokens from the area. Good luck on the auction.