1830 Capped Bust Half Dollar Large O? Opinions on grade/ cleaned or not. Anything else welcome. 0

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

[powermad5000]

Your coin seems to be the 1830 Large 0 O-121 variety. The variety is difficult to tell from the photo which is slightly less than clear (I do like however that you show the edge of the coin and handle it with a glove on as well in your pics so thumbs up there). The coin appears to have VF details, but looks like it got a harsh cleaning or abrasion on the high points of the details so this could get a details for whizzed.

[Mike Meenderink]

IMO This coin exhibits improper details on the obverse and reverse rim edges. The small reed lines should extend from the obverse and reverse rim edges onto the field of the coin. The stars are also suspect as several are sharp tips which are not apparent on a known sample coin of the same year. The reverse rim was apparently non reeded or weakly reeded. It just does not look right to me. The toning or coloring with the strange wear on the high points makes this coin suspect. May be a counterfeit. You should do all appropriate tests and research to determine authenticity prior to evaluating for grading. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/12/2023 at 4:51 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

IMO This coin exhibits improper details on the obverse and reverse rim edges. The small reed lines should extend from the obverse and reverse rim edges onto the field of the coin. The stars are also suspect as several are sharp tips which are not apparent on a known sample coin of the same year. The reverse rim was apparently non reeded or weakly reeded. It just does not look right to me. The toning or coloring with the strange wear on the high points makes this coin suspect. May be a counterfeit. You should do all appropriate tests and research to determine authenticity prior to evaluating for grading. 

Do you mean weight, magnet or both for testing or are you referring to something else? Thank you

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/12/2023 at 5:24 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Do you mean weight, magnet or both for testing or are you referring to something else? Thank you

It should be weighed, circumference and thickness measured, placed on an XFRF coin tester such as a Sigma Metalytics Analyzer and examined in person by a coin expert that is familiar with that type. Even if a magnet does not stick that does not always mean its an authentic coin. If the coin turns out to be silver that still doesn't even prove its real. All of the coins attributes must match known catalogued specimens within accepted tolerance in every way. These attributes include all of the above stated attribute and includes the device art, motto and general strike characteristics of the coin.   

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/12/2023 at 8:00 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

It should be weighed, circumference and thickness measured, placed on an XFRF coin tester such as a Sigma Metalytics Analyzer and examined in person by a coin expert that is familiar with that type. Even if a magnet does not stick that does not always mean its an authentic coin. If the coin turns out to be silver that still doesn't even prove its real. All of the coins attributes must match known catalogued specimens within accepted tolerance in every way. These attributes include all of the above stated attribute and includes the device art, motto and general strike characteristics of the coin.   

Almost just makes me want to send it just to be sure. I will definitely have to do some work when i can spare the time. Decisions..

[Sandon]

   Based on the photos, I think that your 1830, large 0 Capped Bust half dollar is probably genuine.  If so, it has Very Fine details, but someone has tried to rub or scrape off some of the heavy toning, which would likely result in a "details" grade.  An unimpaired Very Fine would have a retail (dealer selling) list price of around $125 or so, and this one would likely be worth a third or more less.  I don't think it would be worth the cost of submitting to a grading service to determine its authenticity or the time and expense of submitting it for the various tests suggested by @Mike Meenderink. If you have access to a properly calibrated digital scale that weighs to at least the nearest hundredth of a gram, you might weigh the coin. The official weight for this type when first struck was approximately 13.48 grams. A worn one like this would probably be a little underweight.

On 8/12/2023 at 5:51 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The small reed lines should extend from the obverse and reverse rim edges onto the field of the coin. The stars are also suspect as several are sharp tips which are not apparent on a known sample coin of the same year. 

On 8/12/2023 at 5:51 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The reverse rim was apparently non reeded or weakly reeded.

 

   The "small reed lines" around the rims are generally referred to as "dentils". They are often weak or missing on pieces struck from worn dies, as is common on this type. The dentils also vary in length due to differences in centering of these "open collar" strikes. The stars are frequently elongated on the side facing the rim on coins struck from worn dies. These characteristics are not indicative of either contemporary or modern counterfeits.

   Here are photos of an 1811 large 8 half dollar that PCGS has authenticated and graded VF 30 on which the dentils are partly missing from the obverse and entirely missing from the reverse. Note also the weakness of some of the stars and lettering. These coins were struck on hand operated presses from dies whose lettering, numbers, and devices were all punched in by hand, so their quality and appearance differ widely.

 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/11/2023 at 11:26 PM, powermad5000 said:

The coin appears to have VF details, but looks like it got a harsh cleaning or abrasion on the high points of the details so this could get a details for whizzed.

I see indications of abrasive cleaning, but not whizzing which would be very detrimental to the coin value.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

@EagleRJO do you collect alot of Morgan Dollars? Asking because of your icon. If so do you think buying "California" pedigree Morgans are good looking into i heard the collector is pretty choosy and knowledgeable on VAMs. Was looking at a few pieces from his and even though they might not be the highest graded and fairly low that they must have been decent quality. What's your thoughts if so?

Edited August 13, 2023 by NeverEnoughCoins09
misspelling

[EagleRJO]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:41 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

@EagleRJO do you collect alot of Morgan Dollars? Asking because of your icon. If so do you think buying "California" pedigree Morgans are good looking into i heard the collector is pretty choosy and knowledgeable on VAMs. Was looking at a few pieces from his and even though they might not be the highest graded and fairly low that they must have been decent quality. What's your thoughts if so?

I do collect Morgans and don't pay much attention to special labels like that.  It's just a particular collector that focuses more on higher end Morgans, but it doesn't change the coin grade.  I focus on the coins, not the paper labels.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:00 PM, EagleRJO said:

I do collect Morgans and don't pay much attention to special labels like that.  It's just a particular collector that focuses more on higher end Morgans, but it doesn't change the coin grade.  I focus on the coins, not the paper labels.

Do you collect VAMs by any chance? Are they even worth the time in lower grades? Thanks for your time.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/13/2023 at 1:04 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Do you collect VAMs by any chance? Are they even worth the time in lower grades? Thanks for your time.

I don't collect by VAMS, but have a few I find interesting like a "Spitting Eagle".  Lower grades may not show the variety as prominent.  I think most are overpriced, but that is just me.

Collect what you like, and if it's an area you find interesting maybe start a new topic to get some feedback from some others also.  There are a number on the forum that collect Morgans.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

Awesome thank you @EagleRJO! 

[powermad5000]

@NeverEnoughCoins09, I also collect Morgans although not exclusively. I have well over 100, with some VAM's splashed in that number. I am not a VAM collector per se, but I have come across and acquired some that were in uncirculated condition. The collecting of Morgans in and of itself, is going to be specific to each collector as @EagleRJO mentioned. I have seen a few of these "California" offerings but they appeal to me as much as having a "Redfield" Morgan collected by LeVere Redfield who was also a high end Morgan collector with his own pedigree. It is still a coin in a holder to me and I cannot justify paying extra for a name on a coin regardless of how widely known that name is.

As for collecting VAM's, be aware that there are currently 461 VAM varieties listed on NGC VarietyPlus just for Morgan dollars. To put together a whole collection of either standard Morgan dollars or just VAM Morgans with no standard issues is a very expensive endeavor, especially if you plan on collecting in uncirculated condition which is all I now collect, just beautiful coins. There are VAM collectors, but I am more focused on putting together a complete set of standard date and mintmarks and it gets harder and harder as you get into the key dates.

As for circulated Morgan VAM's, it is the same as collecting circulated Morgans in standard issues. The lower the grade, the lower the value. Only you can decide what coins you want to collect and in what grades and types. To me, anyone can put together a set of cull coins rather easily except for some truly rare series such as early silver dollars (1794-1804). I decided I wanted to collect only uncirculated coins in the best possible grades I can afford to reflect as closely as possible what these coins used to look like when they were first minted.

[J P M]

I do want to say that a lot of coins we see on this site were coins used for every day purchases. These coins were not treated as collectables it was just spending money. Placing a coin on a counter it was subject to being dragged to the edge to be able to pick it up and put it away. So sometimes the high areas have lines of scratches that show up on the coins. It may not always be a cleaned coin just a used coin.  LoL

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

@powermad5000"To me, anyone can put together a set of cull coins rather easily. I decided I wanted to collect only uncirculated coins in the best possible grades I can afford to reflect as closely as possible what these coins used to look like when they were first minted."

I get that, I would love to buy everything to that extent! Its always limited with your bankroll lol. Wasn't focused on collecting VAMs just interested in having a few interesting pieces but at the same time i dont want to be unprofitable or at a loss.

For ex. I found a knobbed 8 Morgan VF30 but it was only $48. NGC price guide $100 or so. Auction prices anywhere from $50-$100. Also passed on a MS64 1884-O Morgan O/O. Also passed on a MS66+ 1881-S Morgan but passed due lack of eye appeal to me "luster".

I am currently picking ones that I want to have. Also would like to be financially positive down the line. I'm collecting basically one of most denominations not whole sets which is probably more profitable and a big accomplishment.

Edited August 14, 2023 by NeverEnoughCoins09
wrong picture

[EagleRJO]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:00 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Also would like to be financially positive down the line

That is not always the case with collectible coins, particularly in the short term, due to costs and overhead related to buying and selling them.  I don't consider coins to be a good "investment", unless you are very good as spotting varieties that others miss, and over the short term should be expected to result in a loss.

The best thing you can do to mitigate any potential losses is to learn as much as you can about the coins you are interested in, including grading and values, before you start buying them.

[powermad5000]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:00 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Also passed on a MS66+ 1881-S Morgan but passed due lack of eye appeal to me "luster".

I can see why you passed on that one. My profile pic by the way is an 1881 S MS 66+ (with fantastic eye appeal)...LOL

[EagleRJO]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:00 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

... passed on a MS66+ 1881-S Morgan but passed due lack of eye appeal to me "luster".

I also agree about passing on that one since it really isn't that appealing, at least to me.  Another reason I don't get that hung up on paper labels or always looking for MS coins.

I often find that some lower grade XF or AU grade coins actually look nicer and more authentic to me than higher grade and more expensive ones, as most coins were meant to be circulated, like the attached AU slider 1881-S Morgan

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:57 AM, EagleRJO said:

I often find that some lower grade XF or AU grade coins actually look nicer and more authentic to me than higher grade and more expensive ones, as most coins were meant to be circulated, like the attached AU slider 1881-S Morgan

I understand I know what you mean. I have one of those

Edited August 16, 2023 by NeverEnoughCoins09
spelling error

[J P M]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:39 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

I understand I know what you mean. I have one of those

To me a 65 is a high grade Morgan. Finding 66, 67and68 are the cream of the crop.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:29 PM, J P M said:

To me a 65 is a high grade Morgan. Finding 66, 67and68 are the cream of the crop.

If I'm not mistaken 1881-s Morgan is a key date or atleast significant date I did well on this one atleast Passed on a 66+ for $120 kind of regret but it's eye appeal was lacking

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

only from the limited pictures that I had it seemed dull and weak but I could have been wrong kind of second guessing myself now..

[Sandon]

On 8/16/2023 at 2:01 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

If I'm not mistaken 1881-s Morgan is a key date or atleast significant date

   To the contrary, the 1881-S is the most common Morgan dollar except for the 1921, and more have been certified by the major grading services than any other Morgan dollar. Check out the NGC Census and the PCGS Population Report. It's also one of the most common Morgan dollars in MS 65 or better grades and tends to be well-struck with attractive luster or proof-like, which makes it a common choice as a type coin.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/16/2023 at 2:01 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

1881-s Morgan ... Passed on a 66+ for $120 kind of regret but it's eye appeal was lacking

I think that is the one many agreed was not very appealing, so there shouldn't be any regrets.

On 8/16/2023 at 2:10 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

... it seemed dull and weak but I could have been wrong kind of second guessing myself now..

Go with your initial gut reaction as it's likely something you will hold for a while.

Edited August 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/16/2023 at 2:38 PM, EagleRJO said:

I think that is the one many agreed was not very appealing, so there shouldn't be any regrets.

Go with your initial gut reaction as it's likely something you will hold for a while.

From what I see at auctions and people selling in general. It seems pretty hard to buy anything at a decent price. Or profitable price. Either over bids or marked up prices..maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. Or it just takes good timing and patience

[ldhair]

On 8/16/2023 at 2:54 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Or profitable price.

Good luck with that. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/16/2023 at 3:41 PM, ldhair said:

Good luck with that. 

He’s not entirely wrong. Current prices make it NEARLY impossible to buy almost ANYTHING with an eye toward turning a quick profit. All the meat is off the bone. It’s just that kind of market right now. It’ll turn again.