Rainbow toning on ancient silver coin - Alexander Tetradrachm 1 1

[aleccomix]

Any opinions on how this rainbow toning on my Alexander tet formed? Could it be artificial? 

Also, if I get this an enhanced grade description on this coin for $20 what are the odds of it getting bumped up to XF? or is just Ch VF the ceiling on this one? Anyone have experience getting CGC to put 'lifetime' on the holder? I'm fairly certain this one is a Price 3233 lifetime minted in Myriandrus--what kind of documentation would ngc need? are they competent at attributing lifetime designations correctly? I've seen a fair # of examples where it seems people got the standard level grading, but there was no designation of lifetime or posthumous.

I greatly appreciate your advice if you have a few moments. Also would love it if people shared some pics of examples from their collection! 

http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.3233

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by aleccomix
better pics

[Henri Charriere]

[To Moderations' eternal surprise, joy and gratitude, I am going to defer to the bevy of experienced numismatists on board to tackle this in their own inimitable ways.]

[Mike Meenderink]

The coin is made of silver. Silver is subject to tarnishing from environmental conditions. Toning is a light surface oxidation that can occur on any silver coin at any time. Depending on the environment the coin is stored in and how it is stored can contribute to the different colors developing on the coins surface. If it has toned in the holder since you looked at it last be aware coins do tone in the holders. The NGC, PCGS and ANACS holders are not hermetically sealed from the outside environment. Toning is a subjective coin attribute. Some love it some hate it. This is a nice coin with a great rainbow toning pattern. Graders do not award extra "points" for toning when grading the coin. Collectors do however pay a premium for holdered attractive naturally toned straight graded coins. Cheers

Edited August 3, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[aleccomix]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:01 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

The coin is made of silver. Silver is subject to tarnishing from environmental conditions. Toning is a light surface oxidation that can occur on any silver coin at any time. Depending on the environment the coin is stored in and how it is stored can contribute to the different colors developing on the coins surface. If it has toned in the holder since you looked at it last be aware coins do tone in the holders. The NGC, PCGS and ANACS holders are not hermetically sealed from the outside environment. Toning is a subjective coin attribute. Some love it some hate it. This is a nice coin with a great rainbow toning pattern. Graders do not award extra "points" for toning when grading the coin. Collectors do however pay a premium for holdered attractive naturally toned straight graded coins. Cheers

I don't believe it's toned more since being previously graded--the attached pics are from the time of grading. Thank you for the detailed and clear response! Is it possible that ngc might consider toning as a flaw when determining the overall grade? 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:03 PM, aleccomix said:

I don't believe it's toned more since being previously graded--the attached pics are from the time of grading. Thank you for the detailed and clear response! Is it possible that ngc might consider toning as a flaw when determining the overall grade? 

Yes but... NGC, PCGS etc can determine if the coin was artificially or naturally toned. In those cases an authentic coin which has been artificially toned is given a non numerical Details grade stating artificial toning. Your coin however has been graded and given a straight adjectival/ numerical grade (VF30 -35) which indicates the toning is natural as well as pleasing to the eye. On RARE occasions coins with too much "toning" or dark toning that severely limits the ability to see the devices of the coin are sometimes graded Details Environmental Damage. So in short toning can be a double edged sword. Cuts both ways.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[zadok]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:13 PM, aleccomix said:

Any opinions on how this rainbow toning on my Alexander tet formed? Could it be artificial? 

Also, if I get this an enhanced grade description on this coin for $20 what are the odds of it getting bumped up to XF? or is just Ch VF the ceiling on this one? Anyone have experience getting CGC to put 'lifetime' on the holder? I'm fairly certain this one is a Price 3233 lifetime minted in Myriandrus--what kind of documentation would ngc need? are they competent at attributing lifetime designations correctly? I've seen a fair # of examples where it seems people got the standard level grading, but there was no designation of lifetime or posthumous.

I greatly appreciate your advice if you have a few moments. Also would love it if people shared some pics of examples from their collection! 

http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.3233

 

 

 

 

...ur questions n the scope that they cover would be better addressed directly to NGC where u would receive  definitive answers, but u may find someone on the forum who has asked those questions n can address ur concerns....

[RWB]

I see no "rainbow" toning in the photos, merely common tarnish. With a grade of VF the implication is that the coin was dipped and allowed to tarnish naturally. Only an FDC coin would have original color.

Edited August 3, 2023 by RWB

[aleccomix]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:01 AM, zadok said:

...ur questions n the scope that they cover would be better addressed directly to NGC where u would receive  definitive answers, but u may find someone on the forum who has asked those questions n can address ur concerns....

Don't worry, mate-- I also asked them via email! I've used CGC & PMG more recently, but haven't submitted anything via NGC ever. I've found CGC to be very transparent and honest in unique situations like this--but I'm a bit worried that the NGC support won't say for sure whether graders would give the lifetime attribution unless I pay for the $20 enhanced grade description (arguably, attribution is a part of that paid service). I'm not likely to sell the coin anytime soon as I'm pretty fond of it, I'm just hoping to get the coin reholdered this year while I still have a CCG premium subscription. I also have some ANACS coins(Roman Rep. Denarius - M Cipius, & Hadrian Denarius) that I'd love to get put in NGC holders-- but $55 seems a bit steep for coins only worth a couple hundred dollars. 

 

 

[Coinbuf]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:01 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The coin is made of silver. Silver is subject to tarnishing from environmental conditions. Toning is a light surface oxidation that can occur on any silver coin at any time. Depending on the environment the coin is stored in and how it is stored can contribute to the different colors developing on the coins surface. If it has toned in the holder since you looked at it last be aware coins do tone in the holders. The NGC, PCGS and ANACS holders are not hermetically sealed from the outside environment. Toning is a subjective coin attribute. Some love it some hate it. This is a nice coin with a great rainbow toning pattern. Graders do not award extra "points" for toning when grading the coin. Collectors do however pay a premium for holdered attractive naturally toned straight graded coins. Cheers

@aleccomix Some of the information in this post is false and I would caution against putting too much faith in this person, he just showed up recently and has been posting a fair amount of misinformation.   TPG's do in fact grade coins higher if they feel the look of the coin (including any toning) enhances the eye appeal portion of the grade.   Typically, this is only one grade point but there is no definitive formula or number of grade points that a coin might be bumped for eye appeal when graded.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Coinbuf

[aleccomix]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:49 PM, RWB said:

I see no "rainbow" toning in the photos, merely common tarnish. With a grade of VF the implication is that the coin was dipped and allowed to tarnish naturally. Only an FDC coin would have original color.

 

Definitely knew that was a possibility when I bought the coin a few years ago -but I still personally appreciate the unique look of colors either way- and I didn't pay a premium vs market value of non-toned coins at the time. 

Do you have an opinion on whether it would achieve a higher grade if I resubmit for the expanded grade description service? I was thinking that the strike is a bit off (especially on obverse), which might give it a better adjectival grade (vs current net grade of VF). If you think the toning contributed to the current VF net grade-- then I suppose that also might be a reason for a higher grade on reholder.

Also, do you have any info on lifetime attributions for these coins? 

Thank you for the insights.

[RWB]

The small images suggest the assigned grade is correct. Tarnish, unless it's really bad, has little effect on ancient coin grades. I don't know what is included in the additional service -- maybe they'll tell you which mint was used. "Lifetime attribution" has no meaning to me -- how does NGC explain it? (The coin in my post is graded FDC.)

[aleccomix]

On 8/3/2023 at 1:00 PM, Coinbuf said:

@aleccomix Some of the information in this post is false and I would caution against putting too much faith in this person, he just showed up recently and has been posting a fair amount of misinformation.   TPG's do in fact grade coins higher if they feel the look of the coin (including any toning) enhances the eye appeal portion of the grade.   Typically, this is only one grade point but there is no definitive formula or number of grade points that a coin might be bumped for eye appeal when graded.

Oh yes, I certainly take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. I'm biased, but I think his commentary was pretty spot on when he "this is a nice coin" though. 

I think there's a decent amount of confusion generally out there about ngc ancient's grading scale vs ngc's normal grading scale.

At this point, I'm mostly interested in opinions on whether this coin would get a grade bump by resubmitting for the expanded grade description, and if anyone has experience dealing with ngc on lifetime attributions for Alexander Tets. 

Thanks for the insights. 

 

[aleccomix]

On 8/3/2023 at 1:14 PM, RWB said:

The small images suggest the assigned grade is correct. Tarnish, unless it's really bad, has little effect on ancient coin grades. I don't know what is included in the additional service -- maybe they'll tell you which mint was used. "Lifetime attribution" has no meaning to me -- how does NGC explain it? (The coin in my post is graded FDC.)

Lifetime is printed by NGC on holders for coins that were minted prior to Alexander the Great's death in 323bc. the expanded grade description, as I currently understand it, is already included in the standard $55 grading tier, however, it isn't included when people grade coins in bulk or economy submissions (like mine was) . expanded grades are supposed to have attribution, weight, & sub-grades for Strike, Surface, & Style. when you get the expanded grade description, I think its possible to get a better overall grade (vs economy or bulk submission's basic net grade), because the strike, surface, and style grades are separately evaluated and the overall grade is more purely based on the level of wear on the coin. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/grading.aspx#3S

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4532/Ancients-Economy-Tier/

Really jealous of the coin in your post by the way-- whether it's lifetime or posthumous(post 323bc), it's incredible!  Do you have a photo of the obv handy? We might be able to attribute it to a likely mint location/date. 

 

[aleccomix]

[Coinbuf]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:15 AM, aleccomix said:

Oh yes, I certainly take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. I'm biased, but I think his commentary was pretty spot on when he "this is a nice coin" though. 

I think there's a decent amount of confusion generally out there about ngc ancient's grading scale vs ngc's normal grading scale.

At this point, I'm mostly interested in opinions on whether this coin would get a grade bump by resubmitting for the expanded grade description, and if anyone has experience dealing with ngc on lifetime attributions for Alexander Tets. 

Thanks for the insights. 

 

No worries, as I said not all the info was wrong just that it is not all correct either.   Sorry that I cannot help with your questions, I do not collect ancients and have no experience with that service at NGC.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:00 AM, Coinbuf said:

@aleccomix Some of the information in this post is false and I would caution against putting too much faith in this person, he just showed up recently and has been posting a fair amount of misinformation.   TPG's do in fact grade coins higher if they feel the look of the coin (including any toning) enhances the eye appeal portion of the grade.   Typically, this is only one grade point but there is no definitive formula or number of grade points that a coin might be bumped for eye appeal when graded.

Yhea Mr Know It All you just have to have the last word. Toning is tarnish. Eye appeal is subjective. Graders do not consider toning as a metric since that subjective metric is widely varied. The presence of appealing toning may not DETRACT from a coins grade but it would not increase the grade in any way. You are wrong. Stop trying to discredit my opinions. Ita not a good look for you.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[VKurtB]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:13 PM, aleccomix said:

Any opinions on how this rainbow toning on my Alexander tet formed? Could it be artificial? 

Also, if I get this an enhanced grade description on this coin for $20 what are the odds of it getting bumped up to XF? or is just Ch VF the ceiling on this one? Anyone have experience getting CGC to put 'lifetime' on the holder? I'm fairly certain this one is a Price 3233 lifetime minted in Myriandrus--what kind of documentation would ngc need? are they competent at attributing lifetime designations correctly? I've seen a fair # of examples where it seems people got the standard level grading, but there was no designation of lifetime or posthumous.

I greatly appreciate your advice if you have a few moments. Also would love it if people shared some pics of examples from their collection! 

http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.3233

 

 

 

 

To the extent that silver sulfides can be said to be “oxidation” MM might be right here. I get very squeamish about using the word “oxidation” loosely, because it implies that oxygen is the element at work, when on silver coins, it usually is not. The most usual culprit is sulfur, whether as a sulfide, a sulfite, or a sulfate. In fact, silver thiosulfate is a VERY common toning agent. Some people insist that “oxidation” is correct even when a thiosulfate is at work. Is it oxidation when hydrogen sulfide gas has been the toning element? That’s up to you to decide. Like I said, I get squeamish about the implication of the word “oxidation”.

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 1:48 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Yhea Mr Know It All you just have to have the last word. Toning is tarnish. Eye appeal is subjective. Graders do not consider toning as a metric since that subjective metric is widely varied. The presence of appealing toning may not DETRACT from a coins grade but it would not increase the grade in any way. You are wrong. Stop trying to discredit my opinions. Ita not a good look for you.

They ain’t supposed to consider toning as a metric, especially when attempting technical grading, but they undeniably do. 

[Coinbuf]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:48 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Yhea Mr Know It All you just have to have the last word. Toning is tarnish. Eye appeal is subjective. Graders do not consider toning as a metric since that subjective metric is widely varied. The presence of appealing toning may not DETRACT from a coins grade but it would not increase the grade in any way. You are wrong. Stop trying to discredit my opinions. Ita not a good look for you.

The only know it all is you, practically every post you have made has had at least one experienced member provide you with feedback on what you got wrong, yet you reply with attacks, insults and insist that you and you alone are correct.   And the bad look here is the constant misinformation that you are spreading, which is a bad look for you and NGC.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Coinbuf

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 3:09 PM, Coinbuf said:

The only know it all is you, practically every post you have made has had at least one experienced member provide you with feedback on what you got wrong, yet you reply with attacks, insults and insist that you and you alone are correct.   And the bad look here is the constant misinformation that you are spreading, which is a bad look for you and NGC.

Oh, but @Coinbuf, haven’t you read his profile? Not only does he have 30 years experience in coins, but but but he’s ALSO a Californian who fishes and snowboards! How can ANY OF US hope to compete with a CV like that!?!? I know I am cowed from arguing with him, because I only have 60 years of experience and don’t strap slippery boards to my feet and slide down ice-laden slopes. And I don’t even FISH, nor have I ever. Californian ALMOST tells you all you need to know.

[aleccomix]

@Coinbuf @Mike Meenderink    So much more drama than I was expecting for a coin forum . Not sure how far back your feud goes, but I feel like you're both overreacting against each other in this specific thread. I can't even tell what specifically it is that you're disagreeing about here. It seems like MM's only (potential) wrongdoing was his level of confidence (which I'm still not sure is unwarranted based on this specific thread)-- all he had to do was use more phrasing like 'i believe' or 'in my opinion'.  Coinbuf, again I'm not sure about these other threads you're mentioning, but I think it's a bit aggressive to use the word 'misinformation' for nuanced topics like this where there isn't always a clearly defined right or wrong opinion. It's not as if MM was deliberately sharing information he knew was wrong. 

This is my first time on this forum, and I'd call myself more of a hobbyist than a serious collector-- that said, I wouldn't have asked a forum if these questions had clear cut answers (I can get easy answers from 5 mins of research online).

I really appreciate all the time and thought everyone has put into helping me learn more about my coin!

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:10 PM, aleccomix said:

@Coinbuf @Mike Meenderink    So much more drama than I was expecting for a coin forum . Not sure how far back your feud goes, but I feel like you're both overreacting against each other in this specific thread. I can't even tell what specifically it is that you're disagreeing about here. It seems like MM's only (potential) wrongdoing was his level of confidence (which I'm still not sure is unwarranted based on this specific thread)-- all he had to do was use more phrasing like 'i believe' or 'in my opinion'.  Coinbuf, again I'm not sure about these other threads you're mentioning, but I think it's a bit aggressive to use the word 'misinformation' for nuanced topics like this where there isn't always a clearly defined right or wrong opinion. It's not as if MM was deliberately sharing information he knew was wrong. 

This is my first time on this forum, and I'd call myself more of a hobbyist than a serious collector-- that said, I wouldn't have asked a forum if these questions had clear cut answers (I can get easy answers from 5 mins of research online).

I really appreciate all the time and thought everyone has put into helping me learn more about my coin!

Hey sorry.. some of these guys in here want to be the smartest and have all the answers. These few even go as far as to talk smack, split hairs and dispute any slight inaccuracies or typos just to make themselves feel smart. I just answered your question before they could. So butt hurt they want to be the best and try to show everyone how much smarter they are than the rest of us. I stated harshly cleaned in another post and they went to work about how its just cleaned... I stated here this coin would not benefit from the toning upon grading..they go to work... These guys are the mental midgets of NGC. I just enjoy examining coins and describing them in this manner when someone asks I give my educated opinion. Am I always right? NO but I am in this case. They know it and they are just to stubborn to admit it. COIN WARS! LOL    

Edited August 4, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

• Member: Seasoned Veteran
• VKURTB
• 9,577 posts
• Joined: June 22, 2015
• Location: Butt: Snugly filled w/ head  Mind: Non-existent

  On 8/3/2023 at 4:00 PM, VKurtB said:

  Oh, but @Coinbuf, haven’t you read his profile? Not only does he have 30 years experience in coins, but but but he’s ALSO a Californian who fishes and snowboards! How can ANY OF US hope to compete with a CV like that!?!? I know I am cowed from arguing with him, because I only have 60 years of experience and don’t strap slippery boards to my feet and slide down ice-laden slopes. And I don’t even FISH, nor have I ever. Californian ALMOST tells you all you need to know.

   

  On 8/3/2023 at 4:00 PM, VKurtB said:

   

   

[Coinbuf]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:10 PM, aleccomix said:

@Coinbuf @Mike Meenderink    So much more drama than I was expecting for a coin forum . Not sure how far back your feud goes, but I feel like you're both overreacting against each other in this specific thread. I can't even tell what specifically it is that you're disagreeing about here. It seems like MM's only (potential) wrongdoing was his level of confidence (which I'm still not sure is unwarranted based on this specific thread)-- all he had to do was use more phrasing like 'i believe' or 'in my opinion'.  Coinbuf, again I'm not sure about these other threads you're mentioning, but I think it's a bit aggressive to use the word 'misinformation' for nuanced topics like this where there isn't always a clearly defined right or wrong opinion. It's not as if MM was deliberately sharing information he knew was wrong. 

This is my first time on this forum, and I'd call myself more of a hobbyist than a serious collector-- that said, I wouldn't have asked a forum if these questions had clear cut answers (I can get easy answers from 5 mins of research online).

I really appreciate all the time and thought everyone has put into helping me learn more about my coin!

Not a feud, he is just a new troll and I think that his last two replies pretty much speak volumes as to the type of person he is.    One of the things that we as collectors (not employees of NGC as Mike is misinformed about again) enjoy is giving back, but in order to be helpful we need to be accurate and as correct as possible with the information in our replies to the questions asked here.   No one on this forum is paid to be here, we just do this to help people.   As you are new to the forum obviously you do not know who is who and who knows their stuff, my original warning was just to give you a heads up in that regard, but you are free to take the advice of anyone you please.

As both of his posts above are against the forum rules I'm going to quote them in my reply so that he cannot just edit his words out, this will be the extent of my participation in your thread, I hope you can get the answers you are looking for.

On 8/3/2023 at 7:39 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

• Member: Seasoned Veteran
• VKURTB
• 9,577 posts
• Joined: June 22, 2015
• Location: Butt: Snugly filled w/ head  Mind: Non-existent

   

   

 

On 8/3/2023 at 7:07 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Hey sorry.. some of these guys in here want to be the smartest and have all the answers. These few even go as far as to talk smack, split hairs and dispute any slight inaccuracies or typos just to make themselves feel smart. I just answered your question before they could. So butt hurt they want to be the best and try to show everyone how much smarter they are than the rest of us. I stated harshly cleaned in another post and they went to work about how its just cleaned... I stated here this coin would not benefit from the toning upon grading..they go to work... These guys are the mental midgets of NGC. I just enjoy examining coins and describing them in this manner when someone asks I give my educated opinion. Am I always right? NO but I am in this case. They know it and they are just to stubborn to admit it. COIN WARS! LOL    

 

[Mike Meenderink]

See what I mean he's a cruise director... bahahaha he needs to get over himself..cheers