Large cent 1851/81 help for grading. 1 1

[tartamimmi]

Dear friends, I have just bought this beautiful variety.
I read that this variety is called N3, but on which catalogue?
In the future I will send it to NGC, is it worth it?
What grades and value could it reach? Perhaps XF40/45?
 

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome!

In the future, please handle all raw coins by their edges and not laying in your fingers. I will tell you what I know about your coin from the pics as where we have a member @Sandon who is much more of an expert in these and could use his help here.

Your coin looks like low end AU in BN color and for the year would be valued somewhere around $150. Hopefully a TPG would not give it a details grade for the obverse rim ding @ 3:00 o'clock. I think the N-3 variety is one of a late die state where the remnants of the numerals underneath are almost non-existent. I though it to be closer to the N-4 variety due to the position of the numerals but I was not really able to match it up to that one either seeing the 5 is very slanted on your coin and also there is a high amount of the numerals underneath present on your coin. Hopefully some help here can correctly identify which variety you have.

The N is for Newcomb variety designations.

As far as submitting the coin, it may be helpful in getting the correct variety designation, but for a single coin I would use the dealer locater on here to try to find a dealer near you that does submissions and can absorb some of the shipping and return costs. There is an $18 VarietyPlus fee that must be paid whether or not the coin falls into a particular variety designation. There is a $22 Economy Tier fee, as well as processing fees, so it would cost about $65-$70 to put this into a slab.

 

[RWB]

"1851" over inverted "185_." ...

[tartamimmi]

You are very kind!! Powermad6000

Thank you 

Edited July 30, 2023 by tartamimmi

[tartamimmi]

On 7/30/2023 at 11:01 PM, RWB said:

"1851" over inverted "185_." ...

Correct. 

[Coinbuf]

That is an interesting overdate for sure.   I'm not seeing any luster on the coin in your op so that would rule out any grade over XF45 imo.   Is it worth it, well that really depends on what you want it graded and slabbed for.   If you want it for a registry set or because you plan to resell the coin then it may be worth it to you to spend the funds and have it graded.   I would simply put the coin into a cost effective holder like a kointaine and enjoy the coin for what it is as it is.

[Sandon]

   Your 1851 large cent is considered a major variety and as such listed in the "Red Book" and most coin price guides as the "1851, 51 over 81" or "1851/81" variety. (NGC calls it 1851/INV 18.)  Although there are now over 40 known die varieties of 1851 large cents, identified by most of the numbers N1 through N45, only the 1851/81 (N3 only) is distinctive enough to be separately listed and priced in these major guides.  (Howard R. Newcomb listed 34 varieties in his United States Copper Cents 1816-1857, originally published in 1944, with a number of new discoveries added and several original varieties delisted since.) This variety was apparently created when the punch used to punch the date into the obverse die was partly punched in upside down and then corrected without the underlying inverted "18", appearing as "81", being completely effaced. (On examples of N3 struck once the dies had become worn, the inverted date feature may not show, and NGC will not classify these as "18/INV 18.)

   Based on the photos, your coin does appear to be the 1851/81 (N3, early die state) variety, not an N4 (repunched date) as suggested by @powermad5000. It shows the correct date characteristics, including the underlying inverted date, and the die scratches beneath Liberty's bun and elsewhere as described by Newcomb. Compare the photos on NGC VarietyPlus at Braided Hair Cents (1839-1857) | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com).

   Although thousands of pieces of this variety are believed to exist, it is popular and commands a premium. Based on the photos, I would grade it Ch. XF (45), but some might grade it AU. Coin World currently lists retail prices for it of $275 in XF 40 and $425 in AU 50, as compared to $73 and $150 for a "regular" 1851 in these respective grades.

   In my opinion, it is neither cost effective nor usually desirable to submit coins of this value to grading services, especially if you are not a "registry set" collector. Moreover, NGC charges an additional $18 to attribute this variety.  I would place it in an appropriate holder, and above all, do not hold it in your bare hands as shown in your photos.

[VKurtB]

The partially remediated verdigris over UNITED is the only significant minus to this piece. I’d keep an eye on that.

Edited July 31, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

Where did you buy this coin and for how much ?

[Hoghead515]

I really like that one. Nice find. If it were mine Id submit it to NCS to see what that crust is around UNITED and if it can be conserved.  Hopefully not PVC damage. That would be heartbreaking. 

[powermad5000]

On 7/30/2023 at 8:35 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Hopefully not PVC damage. That would be heartbreaking.

NCS can remove PVC residue, but I do not believe they can remediate actual PVC damage. Also, in my experiences sending coppers to NCS before grading has not had the most desirable of results. Many times on coppers, they have gotten off the surface issue, but the underlying copper surface remains damaged and stained most likely due to its metal composition in regards to resistance to damage and corrosion. I have had better luck with silver when it comes to NCS. 

I am not sure what that is on the reverse, but I suspect even if NCS had a go at it, it might help keep it from getting any worse, but I think there would still be a stain. The coin itself is really good condition for an earlier copper and I think the OP has a good find. I would submit it but that's just me and I send in roughly 25-40 coins at a time, so shipping to me would be null in the grand scheme of things which is why I suggested finding a dealer that is close that will lump it in with their submission to save on submitting a single coin.

[tartamimmi]

thank you all for the support. 
In Italy we pay 35.00 euros for the grading service for each coin, with a 5/6 month of wait.
I will send the coin to NGC at the first opportunity along with other Italian ones I have to slab.

I have several experienced friends, who can restore the coin professionally, without losing the patina.
don't worry, it won't get polished/cleaned 
We will see the result. 

THANK YOU !!

[powermad5000]

Good to hear! Please get back to us in this thread once you have the coin back from NGC so we can see how it turned out!

We always like a good ending to a story (as well as see what grade it ends up getting so we can verify our own grading skills which can be difficult without the coin in hand by the way.)

Edited August 1, 2023 by powermad5000

[EagleRJO]

On 7/31/2023 at 3:33 AM, tartamimmi said:

In Italy we pay 35.00 euros for the grading service for each coin ... 

Isn't there also the per order handling fee, variety fee (for the 1851/81 variety), and return shipping fee, plus your cost to ship the coin to NGC GmbH?  Why not just put it in your own holder and keep an eye on the discoloration as you are likely to lose money submitting it?

[tartamimmi]

It's not a thousand dollar coin, but it deserves to be properly graded.
If its value, in the slab, reaches 250/300 dollars, I will largely recover the expenses!
The pieces that deserve, I think it's good to put them in slabs, to preserve them, and to have a certainty of value in the future.
Because in Italy, in case of resale, without slab this US piece would not be appreciated and valued for its correct value.
I think the Slab is an international conservation guarantee. So it gives me security on the pieces I have in my collection.
And it gives me a certain grading, not the hypothetical grade of internet friends.
thanks a lot to everyone!

[VKurtB]

On 8/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, tartamimmi said:

I think the Slab is an international conservation guarantee. So it gives me security on the pieces I have in my collection.

The conservation value of slabs is grossly overstated. The coins must STILL be lavishly tended to in terms of heat, humidity, and gasses of all types. No slabs are airtight. No one has ever claimed they were. “Sonically sealed” means sound waves were used to close the slab, NOT that the slabs are airtight. 

[Sandon]

   NGC states that its holders are not designed to be either airtight not watertight. See NGC Grading FAQs - NGC Labels and Holders | NGC (ngccoin.com), answer to question, "Is the NGC holder airtight or watertight". The NGC Guarantee does not apply to coins that NGC has determined have been improperly stored or that tend to deteriorate over time. NGC Guarantee | Coin Certification Guarantee | NGC (ngccoin.com).  Most importantly concerning the copper coin that is the subject of this topic, "Coins made of copper, bronze and brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated Coins, the grade portion of this Guarantee will no longer apply after the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation. 

   The vast majority of my circulated half and large cents and other copper and copper alloy coins have been stored in Library of Coins and Whitman albums in air-conditioned bank vaults for decades. They're doing just fine and taking up a small fraction they would occupy in grading service holders. Although NGC and other grading service holders will protect coins from your grubby fingers, falls, and certain other hazards, so will far less expensive and bulky storage options.

[tartamimmi]

Thanks as always for the replies, for me the slab is protection from falls, fingers acids and other possible damages!
obvious that the coin inside is still breathing.
I took another braided cent variety very very interesting!
And I need your opinion! In these days I will make a new post!

greetings from Italy
Miriam