Emergency Production ASE’s 1 1

[Jason Abshier]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:27 PM, VKurtB said:

This is an outright lie. Not true.

American Gold Eagle coins are considered collectibles by the IRS. If you own your Eagles for less than a year and sell them, they are taxed at your personal marginal tax rate. If you hold them more than a year before selling, they are taxed at 28 percent, which is the IRS tax rate for collectibles.

https://www.providentmetals.com › ...

Commonly Questions About American Gold Eagle Coins - Provident Metals

Ive heard the same there taxes on bullion I believe it’s called capital gain taxes after you own/hold/sell IRS considers you reporting if I high doubt most private owning individual report this…. Beauty of PA state is collectible coins and bullion are tax exempt! But I believe medals and Exonumia and tokens are not covered under the Tax exemption law ? 

[EagleRJO]

I think the op meant that there is no sales tax on silver eagles.  I recently purchased the 2023 Proof ASE and there was no sales tax, and when I looked back at some of the gold and silver bullion eagle coins purchased last year there also was no sales tax.

Now, capital gains on gold and silver as collectables when you sell them is a different story ,,, https://www.jmbullion.com/investing-guide/taxes-reporting-iras/capital-gains/

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:21 PM, Jason Abshier said:

Ive heard the same there taxes on bullion I believe it’s called capital gain taxes after you own/hold/sell IRS considers you reporting if I high doubt most private owning individual report this…. Beauty of PA state is collectible coins and bullion are tax exempt! But I believe medals and Exonumia and tokens are not covered under the Tax exemption law ? 

PA does not apply the 6% (7 in Pittsburgh, 8 in Philly) sales tax to bullion or collectible coins. You are correct that PA DOES INDEED tax literature, exonumia AND any banknotes, net of face value. (If you buy a $10 face note for $100 dollars, $90 is sales taxable.) PA taxes capital gains ON EVERY PROFIT at its regular personal income tax rate. Most localities do not tax cap gains. All capital gains, EVEN THOSE ON ANERICAM EAGLE COINS are fully taxable at your capital gains rate (28% for most people) by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. That Stackerdude guy has ZERO idea what he’s talking about. There IS NO SPECIAL TAX TREATMENT for American Silver Eagles.

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:24 PM, EagleRJO said:

I think the op meant that there is no sales tax on silver eagles.  I recently purchased the 2023 Proof ASE and there was no sales tax, and when I looked back at some of the gold and silver bullion eagle coins purchased last year there also was no sales tax.

Now, capital gains on gold and silver as collectables when you sell them is a different story ,,, https://www.jmbullion.com/investing-guide/taxes-reporting-iras/capital-gains/

This depends on your state and locality. If I go out to the brick and mortar coin dealer today, I WILL PAY 10.00% in Alabama and Marshall County sales tax. I have seen it done. Sooooo, what do I do? When I want them, I buy them in virtually any other state. What do I get instead? My property taxes for a 2,000 square foot single family home in a gorgeous old small town on an half acre are LESS THAN $500 per year!!! The property taxes on this home in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania would be about $7,500 and headed up HUGE every year. My Alabama/Marshall County/Arab property taxes have DECREASED every year since I moved here and will decrease again next year. My county and city both are running HUGE surpluses.

The fiscal idea here is to have outsiders help pay for our public services through having a huge sales tax. It’s the same idea as in the bad old days with unfair speed traps.

Edited August 4, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

That sucks paying sales tax on ASE's at a LCS in PA.  What about if you order them over the internet, like from the US mint?

[Reno Raines]

I buy all of my coins on the internet and the sales tax is usually less. In OH our sales tax is 7.250 percent.

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:22 PM, EagleRJO said:

That sucks paying sales tax on ASE's at a LCS in PA.  What about if you order them over the internet, like from the US mint?

Not Pennsylvania, Alabama. I largely stopped buying silver bullion. I get one per year for my Dansco album, and I get the burnished direct from the Mint. I also like the annual single example from South Africa, Austria, the United Kingdom, and Mexico. Strictly the bullion versions, no proofs.

Edited August 4, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 8/4/2023 at 4:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Not Pennsylvania, Alabama. 

Got ya.  And if someone in AL orders over the internet, like from the US mint?

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:53 PM, EagleRJO said:

Got ya.  And if someone in AL orders over the internet, like from the US mint?

No sales tax from the Mint.

[Stackerdude21]

Most if not all coins I have bought online I have NEVER paid a tax. Local purchases are different. State and local tax differs. Yes to those. That’s a legal sales tax. None on an ASE from the “Big Metal” dealers either. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2023 at 10:08 PM, Stackerdude21 said:

Most if not all coins I have bought online I have NEVER paid a tax. Local purchases are different. State and local tax differs. Yes to those. That’s a legal sales tax. None on an ASE from the “Big Metal” dealers either. 

I virtually NEVER buy coins online other than from mints, five of them. I get to major coin shows out of state numerous times per year, including the entire week next week in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I’ll buy what I need or want there. States are a mixed bag. I have the highest sales tax I’ve ever heard of here in Alabama, including on all groceries, but I have almost no property tax bill, I can carry a concealed weapon without any permit at all, and we have some of the lowest gas prices and gas taxes in the nation. And where I live in Alabama, we’ve had TWO days over 100 degrees. Pittsburgh, PA has had more. New York City has had more. We had ONE day of Canadian wild fire smoke. And we have close to ZERO crime because we have mostly devout evangelical Christians and the most cops per capita of anywhere I’ve ever lived and a butt-kicking “stand your ground” law with prosecutors who haven’t forgotten they work for the regular folks. And as an added cultural bonus, I nearly never see a Prius nor a charging station for an EV. We have more supersized pickup trucks than anything else and muscle cars with V8 engines are a close second. All in all, I’ll take where I am. If I want to do numismatics, I pack into the twin-turbocharged V6 2023 Ford Explorer ST and go. See you on I-75, I-40, I-81, and a bunch more Interstates in West Virginia and PA on Sunday. Look for me.I’m the guy with the ‘Bama Roll Tide tag with a pro-Penn State tag number message 

Edited August 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[Stackerdude21]

EagleRJO,

Checked the NGC Price-guide tonight.  $250.00 as of right now. Current pricing. 

[Reno Raines]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, Stackerdude21 said:

EagleRJO,

Checked the NGC Price-guide tonight.  $250.00 as of right now. Current pricing. 

I seriously doubt that you'd get $250.00 from an experienced collector but from a newbie who doesn't know any better you would.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, Stackerdude21 said:

EagleRJO ... Checked the NGC Price-guide tonight.  $250.00 as of right now. Current pricing. 

You have to be careful with price guides like that as some are outdated, including the guide price for an 2020/2021 EP ASE as I previously noted.  If you look at the "Last Updated" entry on that NGC Guide pricing it says it was last updated 3/22/2021 (see the attached).

They are just not going for that any more, and if you look at my post with the snip of recent ebay sold listing they are going for around $50.  The upside is you wont have to worry about paying capital gains to the IRS. 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Stackerdude21]

You must have an old computer. 

[Stackerdude21]

Eagle RJO,

As it has been stated, and in other markets as well,

when buyer meets seller and the price “settled” it is marked SOLD!

[Stackerdude21]

[Stackerdude21]

And there you have it.

[powermad5000]

@EagleRJO is correct. You are looking at what is posted in the price guide WHICH if you scroll down on the coin in NGC Coin Explorer, to the section titled Price Guide and scroll to the right where the 70 number is, you will see that the $250 number is last updated as of 03/22/2021. I just did this on my computer. It has nothing to do with the age of the computer looking at the information. It is that you are NOT looking at where that number is coming from. Obviously, NGC decided it was no longer updating the price guide for this coin probably most likely due to its constant fluctuation on an almost daily basis back at the time. 

I just plugged this 2020 emergency coin (P) into an eBay search and found over a dozen on Buy It Now for less than $60 and one for less than $50. Explains why NGC quit updating the price guide for it.

I do not buy these ASE's as a long time ago it turned too marketing gimmicky for me, so I have a handful and quit participating. I also have no vested interest in this discussion or argument. What I will say though is @Stackerdude21, if you made your money back when they came out, then good and congrats. But the whole ASE program is now a full on marketing scheme aimed at new collectors who do not understand trends in the marketplace and the Mint will gladly take their money as well as the big dealers buying the monster boxes and making all their first strike, first day of issue, mint director signed labels by guys with an "in" like Mike Mezack (who makes me have a little vomit in my throat when I see his presentations), but it is those guys making all the money on this. And after 20 years pass, nobody is going to get excited over Angela Buchanan's signature on the label in the slab.

These are BULLION.

[Stackerdude21]

Explain the below. 

[Just Bob]

On 8/5/2023 at 3:42 PM, Stackerdude21 said:

Explain the below. 

Simple. NGC has not updated their evaluation of these coins, so the price graph remains the same. When/if they update the price in their system, the line will either go up or down. If they change it to reflect actual prices realized, it will surely go down, and by a large amount. 

I realize that you would like to be able to look at that price and say that your coins are worth $250 each. But, in the real world, a coin is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay. The amount on a computer screen means absolutely nothing if no one is willing to pay that amount. Maybe one day the price of these will go up, and you can actually say that your coins are really worth $250. But right now, in the real world where people are actually buying and selling these coins, they are worth under $100. That's just the plain and simple truth. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that. Sorry.

[Reno Raines]

Stackerdude, earlier this year I bought a pre graded NGC MS 70 2022 burnished ASE. The NGC price guide lists that coin to be worth $110.00. I paid a grand total of $61.60 or only 44% of it's NGC listed price guide value (whichever way you want to look at it). So using your logic that the NGC price guide is the "Be all that ends all" I have a 56% profit margin. I always write down the NGC price guide value for every coin that I'm interested in purchasing - I make one absolute high bid and if anybody's bid is higher than mine they're usually in the red on the deal. Whenever I see the coin market is inflated due to too much hype surrounding that particular coin I tip toe out of the hobby and re - enter once the market cools off.

[Stackerdude21]

Impact of COVID-19 on production, 2020

On March 28, 2020, the West Point Mint, believed to be the only producer of bullion American Silver Eagles from 2018 up until early 2020, was shut down for cleaning after an employee tested positive for SARS-CoV-2.^[67][68] The facility reopened on April 1, and bullion coin production was reduced to prevent employee exposure to COVID-19, before once again being shut down on April 15 due to safety concerns.^[69]

To make up for the reduced and later suspended production of silver bullion coins, the Philadelphia Mint struck 240,000 American Silver Eagles from April 8 through April 20,^[70] making them among the rarest uncirculated issues to date.^[71] Although these coins were physically identical to the West Point coins, coin grading companies began certifying Philadelphia Mint Silver Eagles as "Emergency Issues."^[72] Production at West Point continued on April 21.^[70]
 

^{source Wikipedia}

[Reno Raines]

On 8/5/2023 at 10:33 PM, Stackerdude21 said:

Impact of COVID-19 on production, 2020

On March 28, 2020, the West Point Mint, believed to be the only producer of bullion American Silver Eagles from 2018 up until early 2020, was shut down for cleaning after an employee tested positive for SARS-CoV-2.^[67][68] The facility reopened on April 1, and bullion coin production was reduced to prevent employee exposure to COVID-19, before once again being shut down on April 15 due to safety concerns.^[69]

To make up for the reduced and later suspended production of silver bullion coins, the Philadelphia Mint struck 240,000 American Silver Eagles from April 8 through April 20,^[70] making them among the rarest uncirculated issues to date.^[71] Although these coins were physically identical to the West Point coins, coin grading companies began certifying Philadelphia Mint Silver Eagles as "Emergency Issues."^[72] Production at West Point continued on April 21.^[70]
 

^{source Wikipedia}

I guess that you'll continue to just ignore all the current sold listings data from multiple auctions because it doesn't fit your theory. Oh well you can't fix stupid.

[Sandon]

On 8/5/2023 at 10:33 PM, Stackerdude21 said:

these coins were physically identical to the West Point coins

   This is the crux of the issue and why it is, in my opinion, correct for others who have responded to this topic to refer to the holders containing these coins as nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

   Many of us who post on these forums can rightfully be referred to as numismatists--those who study as well as collect coins and other things made for use as money.  In this case grading services have placed the words "Emergency Issue" and identified certain coins as having been made at a specific mint on the little paper tag or label inserted into the holder not based on a mint mark or any other distinguishing characteristic of the coins themselves but purportedly on markings on the container in which the mint shipped the coins, which no one can subsequently verify. Anyone who pays a premium for coins in these holders is paying it for what is printed on that little paper tag, not for the coin itself, which if removed from the holder would simply be a common 2020 bullion issue ASE with a mintage of over thirty million. There is nothing to learn or to study or to list in the "Redbook". This is not numismatics.

  You are welcome to collect what you wish, including grading service holders because of their labels rather than the coins they contain.  The grading services and those who submit and market these items thank you for your money. 

  

[powermad5000]

Mintage number 240,000. Means nothing when it comes to bullion. Evidenced by a simple search across several platforms that these are selling for $50-60. Once again, they are bullion. They were not meant for circulation.

Let's take a look at a Morgan Dollar. It was meant for circulation, and many were circulated, and some were highly circulated. The closest mintage number to 240,000 was the 1885 CC with a mintage number of 228,000. There are no 70 or 69 MS grades so we will use the highest grade given so far at MS 68. The price guide value for it is $52,000. And a collector would be willing to pay $52,000 for it, because it is not bullion, but an actual US currency that was earned and spent and there are specimens in range from POOR 1 to MS 68.

The difference here is these bullion ASE's are made to be put into a capsule and live the rest of their lives in a capsule, maybe to be removed from such capsule once and put into a TPG slab. Most grade MS 70 - MS 69. Some 68, and a few oopsies that graded as MS 67. They were meant to be perfect condition coins. They are all basically the same, so just as @Sandon and @EagleRJO mentioned, if you took the coin out of the slab with the label and put it with others of the same date, they would all look the same.

Many of the smart collectors on here noted the marketing of these coins and the studied the market price trends for them and realized after many years since their inception that they do not hold significant value. As well, many experienced collectors on here that do collect ASE's will NOT collect them in MS 70 grades as they realize the premium to pay for those is not worth the markup considering MS 69 coins are literally identical to 70 graded ones to the naked eye. Their ASE collections are all 69 graded, and smartly so. Because in the end, they are not rare coins, but just one ounce of .999 Fine Silver. Others who collect them will wait many years, sometimes 5 -10 years to buy them so they get them at basic bullion prices (they will only pay $25-40 for one of them). Which then comes back to the debate (or lack of) surrounding your 240,000 mintage number. Once collectors back off and refuse to pay big prices for these, the value drops and ask many a collector that ASE prices drop precipitously as new ones are made and the hype shifts to the next marketing thing (which will probably be a newly designed reverse).

I do not know any other way to put it, but if you continue to hold to this standard that the mintage number justifies the price, you are going to have an even more difficult time when it comes to sell, especially when a dealer pulls out their Greysheet and tells you they have no margin on them and they will give you melt value.

 

[J P M]

I, like many collectors wish the ASE's would gain in value more than they have. In my opinion they have been overmarketed and oversold. I have a complete collection all raw hand picked from various dealers and shops all over the east. Only because I could not make a whole set from one dealers stock. I paid just a bit over melt for all of them and they all look MS69/70 . I also have some graded MS70 that I picked up for under $50 only because it was a reasonable deal and if I were to ever sell the set I would have to give the same reasonable deal also. Unless the price of silver were to jump to $30 or $40 a ounce, they are worth what I payed for them, sad to say.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:19 AM, Stackerdude21 said:

You must have an old computer. 

Someone needs to buy you a clue if you think my computer is the reason you cant see accurate information I referenced about these bullion coins, when I even gave you a screen snip of what I was referring to.

It is amazing how people will sometimes cling to inaccurate, outdated or misleading information if it suits their purposes or bursts their bubble on the value for something they have.

[Stackerdude21]

I ORIGINALLY asked the question “Why were 2020 & 2021 graded bullion coins marked ‘Emergency Production’ ?”

The replies have been anything from Good, Better, Best, to Off Point, Irrelevant, disingenuine, insulting and some downright Laughable. 
 

I rarely post on the NGC Chat-board, mainly because I get the same usual nonsense. And, usually from the same “Chat-sters.”

I DON’T need to know if you have low property taxes or carry a concealed weapon on your way to a coin show, or what kind of bumper sticker your car or truck wears. 

I did not ask those questions, nor, do I care.  I also do NOT need to be instructed on what to buy or when to buy, as Mercanti’s book states: “The Future is Unknown” when it comes to buying coins, the price of any coin may rise or fall at ANY time.

What is right for you may not be right for me or the other guy. It is ALL based on speculation. 

History tells the story ONLY of what was made when two acts are completed…. The day he buys and the day he sells.  The 240,000 (P) Bullion Coins Minted in 2020 are as the research proves “different” from the rest of the ordinary bulls.  When minted in Philly they were wrapped and marked and put in specially marked “Monster” boxes and shipped to their respective “preferred” mint customers.  From there, they were graded and encapsulated to be sold on the secondary market. 
 

Both NGC & PCGS note this special labeling EQUAL to a mint mark. Sure, if you remove it from its graded holder it would, and thereupon, become undistinguishable from an ordinary non graded bull, but what collector would do that? The price would degrade to melt value. 
 

All I am saying here is when in 50 years your or my inherit-tees sells a coin that has a label “E.P.” It may or may not garner a premium. Why? Dunno, the future is uncertain.  Heck, they could have put “Covid Coin” on the label.  Would that coin then become “untouchable?”  I don’t think so, nor does NGC or PCGS. 
 

If I buy something today at $50.00 and sell at $250.00 I make a profit. 
 

The net result of what I make or you make is my or your business. That is not determined on a Chat-Board by self proclaimed “Numismatic” collectors.  

Some you win, some you lose, or break even.  It is all in the pleasure of the deal. Just like throwing the dice at a Casino. The pleasure is in the game. 

It is all based on speculation. Caveat: “Let the buyer Beware.” 
 

“You can Buy, or You can Sell, but the price… Well, You can Never Tell.”

- Stack.

[Stackerdude21]

Nobody needs to buy me anything. Please STOP with your insults. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Good or bad. Coins Matter.