I spent approximately €700 on MA-Shop and received a counterfeit coin 2 2

[MelvinFee]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:19 AM, gmarguli said:

This is not a fair thing to say. You're not going to follow the advice of ma-shops because you assume you'll be out both money and the coin. Then you bash ma-shops. 

They have a good reputation. I suspect if you follow the return instructions you will receive a refund. 

Are you saying that I have to pay another 50€for the postage of this counterfeit note and wait for an unknown result

[寂静音无]

Tell you a joke, I bought a fake currency in a fidelity platform, and the only one injured was me

[Jason Abshier]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:47 PM, 寂静音无 said:

Tell you a joke, I bought a fake currency in a fidelity platform, and the only one injured was me

I feel your pain ! Get ahold of MA-shop again and show them this forum chat we been talking about them and how they are conducting business …. However the seller/dealer you are up against has a (rating 635 with 99.7%) they haven’t been in there too long selling…. But where they got you was their *2 week return policy* that’s a policy they set to protect themselves however you can try Paypal see if they can get your refund back for you … not sure how the laws work there you may be even able to file a police report ? Press charges for theft ?

Then again there been people who been burned way way worse than you have been with fake coins who purchased multiple coins spent like $10k or so to find the coin or coins they bought all been fake! …. I would only highly recommend you to buy graded coins already encapsulated by PCGS/NGC especially Gold coins… save yourself the hassle and fees sending the coin in to get authenticated and graded yourself sometimes just isn’t worth it , not even for generic bullion gold coins…

if I’m going to spend $200-$300 or more on a single coin ? I might as well save up a little more money and just try to buy it already graded in a NGC/PCGS holder and call it a day put it in collection it helps me save myself the hassle shipping a coin in for grading and waiting and fees and so on 

[Reno Raines]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:13 AM, Jason Abshier said:

if I’m going to spend $200-$300 or more on a single coin ? I might as well save up a little more money and just try to buy it already graded in a NGC/PCGS holder and call it a day put it in collection it helps me save myself the hassle shipping a coin in for grading and waiting and fees and so on 

That's exactly what I do for the reasons you stated.

[ldhair]

As a normal, dealers take back counterfeits. They want the coin off the market and don't want others to know they sold a counterfeit. Within reason the time frame is not important. They want to protect their reputation. In some cases the dealer wants the coin back so they can return it to the person they bought it from. I don't know how they handle wasted grading fees. I'm used to US coin dealers. Foreign dealers may not see things the same. 

The dealers claim that it's not the same coin makes this deal a bit sticky. The images seem to show that it is the same coin but I may not be understanding what was posted. I hope this can be worked out to make everyone happy.

[VKurtB]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:15 AM, ldhair said:

As a normal, dealers take back counterfeits. They want the coin off the market and don't want others to know they sold a counterfeit. Within reason the time frame is not important. They want to protect their reputation. In some cases the dealer wants the coin back so they can return it to the person they bought it from. I don't know how they handle wasted grading fees. I'm used to US coin dealers. Foreign dealers may not see things the same. 

The dealers claim that it's not the same coin makes this deal a bit sticky. The images seem to show that it is the same coin but I may not be understanding what was posted. I hope this can be worked out to make everyone happy.

On that dealer’s page on MA-shops, I see a whole bunch of sketchy looking coins.  I believe this dealer knows all too well he’s selling fakes. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:35 PM, MelvinFee said:

Are you saying that I have to pay another 50€for the postage of this counterfeit note and wait for an unknown result

I would just pay the postage for the return shipping, and chalk it up to a lesson learned about the potential pitfalls of buying raw coins that are not certified by NGC or PCGS.  At least it appears you will be refunded most of your money, and it shouldn't be an unknown result if you were told you will get a refund if you return the coin.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to ask for you to be emailed a return shipping label, and send them a copy of your receipt for submitting the coin to NGC anyway.  More reputable coin dealers often will send you a return shipping label to return a coin.

They may even give you something like a percent discount or free shipping on your next order if there is a problem like the op had, but I don't think that's something which should be expected from this particular vendor.

On 7/15/2023 at 8:15 AM, ldhair said:

The dealers claim that it's not the same coin makes this deal a bit sticky. The images seem to show that it is the same coin but I may not be understanding what was posted.

It appears that In the op's second and third posts they first attached the (lighter) listing pic of the coin, followed by (darker) pics of the obverse and then reverse of the coin in-hand.

From a side by-side comparison of the areas identified by the op, as well as a very distinctive hook-like mark left of the hair on the obverse (which I circled in blue), it does in fact appear they are the same coins.  See the attached side by-side comparisons with the (darker) coin in-hand on the left and the (lighter) listing pic on the right.

Edited July 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

I in no way would return the fake coin to the seller unless you are comfortable with having the seller resell it to another person who may go through the same pains as you are having from buying it. I would try to get as much back as possible from whatever sources you are able to and chalk up this experience for the need to either buy pre-graded genuine coins or to do much more fact checking on the coins as well as the seller before making internet purchases.

I am sorry this happened to you and I hope you are able to at least get some of your funds back.

[Jason Abshier]

On 7/15/2023 at 3:15 PM, VKurtB said:

On that dealer’s page on MA-shops, I see a whole bunch of sketchy looking coins.  I believe this dealer knows all too well he’s selling fakes. 

Exactly the seller has 2 pages of mostly all RAW gold coins ? Little fishy there too easy to pop a few fakes in between all them gold coins and rip someone off and deny it 

[寂静音无]

Thank you very much for your support. I am currently defending my rights in paypal, and I am waiting for the result. I will let you know when the result is available.

[寂静音无]

waiting

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2023 at 9:02 PM, 寂静音无 said:

waiting

I predict you will wait a VERRRRRY long time. I believe this seller is a crook. You will have a very bad experience here. I hope I am wrong.

[VKurtB]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:19 PM, gmarguli said:

This is not a fair thing to say. You're not going to follow the advice of ma-shops because you assume you'll be out both money and the coin. Then you bash ma-shops. 

They have a good reputation. I suspect if you follow the return instructions you will receive a refund. 

Their “reputation” takes a hit having this crook on their platform. I’m not a fan. Guys selling counterfeits on your platform is a great way to lose a reputation. I predict MA-Shops will NOT “stand up” because they can’t. Too much criminality out there. No platform can handle it. Do business old school. Look ‘em in the eye! Too inconvenient? Too bad. Nobody owes you convenience. Doing business internationally comes with inherent risks and has jurisdiction problems galore. Our government dismisses this stuff as “rich guy problems”. In this country, no counterfeit can legally transfer ownership, at least on paper. Try that in “Asia/Africa”. Their business model IS to rip off Americans and Europeans. Sorry, that’s just who they are. Lower your gullibility score a little. They EXIST to cheat you.

Edited July 19, 2023 by VKurtB

[Conder101]

With PayPal you stand a very good chance of recovering your loss.

You probably have a fair chance at getting you purchase price back from paypal, as long as you didn't use the "family and friends" option to get arounf th fees.  But the customs fees and the NGC fees are basically gone.

[寂静音无]

Still waiting, a little uncomfortable

[EagleRJO]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:15 PM, MelvinFee said:

After persisting for half a month, the seller proposed demanding conditions for me to return the item,

What were the "demanding" conditions, and why not just do that if it would at least get you a refund of your original purchase price.  I think trying to get back more than that, or trying to get a refund without shipping the coin back to the seller, is a lost cause.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/23/2023 at 10:08 PM, EagleRJO said:

What were the "demanding" conditions, and why not just do that if it would at least get you a refund of your original purchase price.  I think trying to get back more than that, or trying to get a refund without shipping the coin back to the seller, is a lost cause.

I agree with you there. If the OP is new to the hobby then the OP SHOULD have bought a pre graded NGC or PCGS version of the coin in question to avoid this kind of a situation. Anyway this is just my two cents on the subject.

[寂静音无]

On 2023/7/24 at AM10点08分, EagleRJO said:

“苛刻”的条件是什么？如果至少能让您获得原始购买价格的退款，为什么不这样做呢？我认为试图收回更多，或者试图在不将硬币运回卖家的情况下获得退款，是一个失败的原因。

The seller asks me to pay the terms, and according to the seller's rules, when the seller acknowledges that it is the same coin he will refund it, if it is not the same coin, the coin is made of gold only pay the value of the gold, if it is not made of gold he will not refund it and will not pay the postage

[寂静音无]

Paypal said it would help me return the goods for a refund. I will apply for the return and record the whole process

[EagleRJO]

On 7/24/2023 at 3:38 AM, 寂静音无 said:

The seller asks me to pay the terms, and according to the seller's rules, when the seller acknowledges that it is the same coin he will refund it, if it is not the same coin, the coin is made of gold only pay the value of the gold, if it is not made of gold he will not refund it and will not pay the postage

Seem like typical conditions to protect the seller so someone doesn't buy a coin and try to return a swapped non-gold knock off for a refund. And it seems like you have documented it's the same as the listed coin. What's the concern?

[寂静音无]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:35 PM, EagleRJO said:

Seem like typical conditions to protect the seller so someone doesn't buy a coin and try to return a swapped non-gold knock off for a refund. And it seems like you have documented it's the same as the listed coin. What's the concern?

Because the seller has always denied that he sold the coins in the picture, this is my biggest worry, I can't get a refund if I mail it to him，paypal said it would help me get a refund if I mailed it back

[powermad5000]

UGH! So the seller will end up with a chance to resell the fake to someone else.....sadly.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Send the coin back.  You're making your case, step by step, and this is the next step.

You've provided a valuable lesson to all of us, you've documented everything the best you can, you've gotten the attention of all the primary parties, and you'll see what happens, good or bad.

[寂静音无]

On 7/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, powermad5000 said:

UGH! So the seller will end up with a chance to resell the fake to someone else.....sadly.

Both ma-shop and paypal requested the return without any compensation

[Reno Raines]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:20 PM, 寂静音无 said:

Both ma-shop and paypal requested the return without any compensation

Why am I not surprised.

[VKurtB]

This is a fundamental problem with dealing internationally. People want to believe SOMEONE is acting as the “counterfeit police”, but the dirty secret is that NOBODY IS. Even domestically, no one is. The Secret Service is not, TPGS firms are not, The ANA is not. Homeland Security is not. NOBODY IS! Deal with remote dealers? You’re on your own, Bucko.

[寂静音无]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:27 AM, VKurtB said:

This is a fundamental problem with dealing internationally. People want to believe SOMEONE is acting as the “counterfeit police”, but the dirty secret is that NOBODY IS. Even domestically, no one is. The Secret Service is not, TPGS firms are not, The ANA is not. Homeland Security is not. NOBODY IS! Deal with remote dealers? You’re on your own, Bucko.

Thanks for your support. I will be more careful after this experience

[寂静音无]

I returned it and the seller refunded it, but I lost about 80 euros

[Reno Raines]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:21 PM, 寂静音无 said:

I returned it and the seller refunded it, but I lost about 80 euros

At least you were able to recover most of the lost money.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

You got 88% of your money back.

I have overpaid for coins in the past where they are genuine.  An immediate loss, easily on a par with a 12% loss.

Then amortize the fact that one of them is still slightly underwater and I've owned it for 10 years, and if I were to try and sell it, a dealer would have to make money for him to sell it, so I would only get… 70% of what I paid for it.  So, technically, it's got a -30% ROI.

Inflation has halved the value of things in the last 10 years, too, and at the rate things are going, well, it sort of reminds me of Marisa Tomei's biological clock.

I do enjoy my coin collection, however, so there is satisfaction in that.  And most of the coins have kept up a little with inflation.

It's a hobby.  Not really an investment.  That's the way it goes.

Edited August 2, 2023 by USAuPzlBxBob
die polishing an errant extra comma