I spent approximately €700 on MA-Shop and received a counterfeit coin 2 2

[寂静音无]

I am a coin lover, I like coins very much, collecting coins makes me happy,In May this year, I bought a gold Wilhelmina 1898 10 guilders at the ma-shop for about 600€, and paid customs and ngc rating fees of about 100 € . The seller is from ma-shop  Asian African Art,   When I sent all the evidence to the seller, at first the seller didn't admit it was the same coin，Later, I sent a lot of evidence to prove that this is the same coin, and the seller also denied it，In the end, ma-shop gave me two choices, one is to return the money for a refund, the other is to leave the fake currency, and the seller sent me a very strict return rules, I have no rights and interests，Today, I consulted many friends, if I return the goods, it is likely that the money and goods will be gone.I decided to let everyone know that ma-shop is not true，

Address of goods   https://www.ma-shops.com/asianafricanart/item.php?id=2324&ref=offer

 

[寂静音无]

[寂静音无]

[寂静音无]

[寂静音无]

And I have a video of the unpacking, just because the video is too big to upload

[RWB]

For this kind of dispute, it is often best to work with the payment company. The laws depend on your country of residence. If you used a credit card in the USA, you should dispute the charge immediately and in writing.

对于此类纠纷，往往最好与支付公司合作。法律取决于您的居住国家/地区。如果您在美国使用信用卡，您应该立即以书面形式对该费用提出异议。

[寂静音无]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:16 AM, RWB said:

For this kind of dispute, it is often best to work with the payment company. The laws depend on your country of residence. If you used a credit card in the USA, you should dispute the charge immediately and in writing.

对于此类纠纷，往往最好与支付公司合作。法律取决于您的居住国家/地区。如果您在美国使用信用卡，您应该立即以书面形式对该费用提出异议。

I use paypal. I have submitted the evidence to paypal, hoping to get back my loss

[寂静音无]

[寂静音无]

I hope you can see the practice of ma-shop, ma-shop tends to sellers rather than buyers, I lost a lot of money when I bought this fake currency, and ma-shop actually has ngc authentication on it, and also sells fake currency

[powermad5000]

PayPal is pretty good at serving their customers, but you would need to read their terms and conditions to make sure it is in their policy to get your money back from a purchase of fraudulent goods.

I hope you can get the money back. You can also visit the forum on this page titled Counterfeit Coins and make a post there to add ma-shop to the list of known sellers of counterfeit coins.

[Mike824]

Many of us have been burned by a counterfeit purchase at sometime in our lives. With PayPal you stand a very good chance of recovering your loss. Keep us posted.

[Jason Abshier]

That’s one of the reason I try not to buy very high end coins overseas … however I do buy a lot German coins on MA-shop in the past …. If it’s something high end I buy for my collection I always research it and only buy it graded by PCGS/NGC (yes I know there’s fake holders with fake coins) but it’s the risk we take  … however I never had bad experience on MA-shop I been buying from dealers on there for years but it mostly German coins ….

Lately I haven’t been buying anything on there the prices have gone way way way up for my taste everything been marked up high… I’m waiting for prices to drop a little it might be a looooong wait for me … I been doing better price buying wise in auctions and other private dealer sites… 

[RWB]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:19 PM, 寂静音无 said:

I use paypal. I have submitted the evidence to paypal, hoping to get back my loss

Also, remember that PayPal is linked to a credit card, and you should also dispute the PayPal charge there.

另外，请记住 PayPal 与信用卡相关联，您还应对 PayPal 的收费提出异议

[GoldFinger1969]

I never heard of ma-shop.

In some of the photos above, the coin looks totally fake (you didn't say if it wasn't gold or was gold but just not an authentic numismatic piece).

This is another reason to either buy certified coins and/or buy only from sellers you know when dealing with raw coins, especially if you aren't an expert.  When dealing with niche coins, more likely to see frauds than in common coins where there are plenty of alternative sellers.

Edited July 13, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Jason Abshier]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:10 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I never heard of ma-shop

For real ? … it been around for long time … mostly European coin dealers overseas , it’s a nice place to get the “hard to find stuff” in world coins …. You have look it up yourself , however mostly 90% of the stuff on there is RAW ,RAW ! you really have look before buying anything on there … but I haven’t bought coins from there in over a year or so … however I did buy a few hard to find German coin catalogs within last month or so … but lately the prices for just about everything is marked up high!!! (well the stuff I want for my collection) 

[Jason Abshier]

I posted this to show for education purposes what a Real Gold 1898 10 guilders looks like compared to the OP’s counterfeit coin 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, Jason Abshier said:

For real ? … it been around for long time … mostly European coin dealers overseas , it’s a nice place to get the “hard to find stuff” in world coins …. You have look it up yourself , however mostly 90% of the stuff on there is RAW ,RAW

No, I never heard about it and as someone who is not into world or foreign coins, I guess I wouldn't come into contact with it.  I only started using HA and GC 4 years or so ago, after a decade of Ebay, Mint, and LCS purchases.

Does the site guarantee authenticity or offer refunds ?  If it's been around a long time, they should stand behind their merchandise and/or dealer network.

Edited July 14, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[ldhair]

I'm almost sure the coin will be refunded after they receive it back. Maybe not on the grading fees. 

[gmarguli]

On 7/12/2023 at 7:59 PM, 寂静音无 said:

In the end, ma-shop gave me two choices, one is to return the money for a refund, the other is to leave the fake currency, and the seller sent me a very strict return rules, I have no rights and interests，Today, I consulted many friends, if I return the goods, it is likely that the money and goods will be gone.I decided to let everyone know that ma-shop is not true，

This is not a fair thing to say. You're not going to follow the advice of ma-shops because you assume you'll be out both money and the coin. Then you bash ma-shops. 

They have a good reputation. I suspect if you follow the return instructions you will receive a refund. 

[Jason Abshier]

On 7/13/2023 at 12:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Does the site guarantee authenticity or offer refunds

 Joachim Schwiening started MA-shop they have an office here in USA also Europe as a well however they cannot guarantee authentic of coins posted on their selling site ,  same can be said about EBay and other platforms as well cannot guarantee it either …..they sell both US and world coins but it’s mostly European dealers and few other countries have dealers as well 

However MA-shop does have a good reputation , they can remove or ban dealers for selling fake coins and not honoring wrong doing like refund , dealers have to pay a “fee” to conduct business through MA-shop… Most dealers I’ve encounter were helpful and honest I’ve had no problems , I’m a little confused why MA-shop didn’t help the OP with his counterfeit gold coin? MA-shop is more of “middle man” however EBay is same way they side with a seller all time … PayPal will honor refunds but is not always guaranteed but they do their best to try get you back your refund it all depends on seller as well 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:36 PM, 寂静音无 said:

I lost a lot of money when I bought this fake currency, and ma-shop actually has ngc authentication on it, and also sells fake currency

It sounds like you have an issue with one of the vendors, Asian African Art, and not really with MA-Shops.  Also, it seems you bought a raw coin that was not authenticated by NGC for a considerable amount of money, which collectors should be very careful doing and have adequate knowledge about before considering.  

On 7/12/2023 at 10:59 PM, 寂静音无 said:

... In the end, ma-shop gave me two choices, one is to return the money [coin] for a refund, the other is to leave the fake currency, and the seller sent me a very strict return rules

If you have the option to return the coin for a refund it's not clear why you are not doing that, and it's pretty standard for a business to receive an item being returned before they issue a refund.  I would just follow the return requirements given, and make sure there is a record of returning the item.

[MelvinFee]

As for why I'm not returning the item for a Return and refund, it's because initially the seller denied that it was the coin they sold, and they didn't respond to my emails asking me to contact ma-shop. However, ma-shop told me to contact the seller. After persisting for half a month, the seller proposed demanding conditions for me to return the item, and they also asked me to cover the shipping cost. In their emails, ma-shop mentioned only two options: returning the item for a refund or keeping the counterfeit coin, without mentioning any compensation. They did not address the customs duties and NGC grading fees that I paid.

[MelvinFee]

Why can't I reply   寂静音无

[MelvinFee]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:20 AM, EagleRJO said:

It sounds like you have an issue with one of the vendors, Asian African Art, and not really with MA-Shops.  Also, it seems you bought a raw coin that was not authenticated by NGC for a considerable amount of money, which collectors should be very careful doing and have adequate knowledge about before considering.  

If you have the option to return the coin for a refund it's not clear why you are not doing that, and it's pretty standard for a business to receive an item being returned before they issue a refund.  I would just follow the return requirements given, and make sure there is a record of returning the item.

As for why I'm not returning the item for a Return and refund, it's because initially the seller denied that it was the coin they sold, and they didn't respond to my emails asking me to contact ma-shop. However, ma-shop told me to contact the seller. After persisting for half a month, the seller proposed demanding conditions for me to return the item, and they also asked me to cover the shipping cost. In their emails, ma-shop mentioned only two options: returning the item for a refund or keeping the counterfeit coin, without mentioning any compensation. They did not address the customs duties and NGC grading fees that I paid.

 

And I have to pay the postage for the refund. I will not spend another penny for this counterfeit money

[MelvinFee]

This is the seller's email

[MelvinFee]

The seller said two weeks, and it was more than two weeks when the counterfeit money was delivered to me

[MelvinFee]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:43 AM, Jason Abshier said:

 Joachim Schwiening started MA-shop they have an office here in USA also Europe as a well however they cannot guarantee authentic of coins posted on their selling site ,  same can be said about EBay and other platforms as well cannot guarantee it either …..they sell both US and world coins but it’s mostly European dealers and few other countries have dealers as well 

However MA-shop does have a good reputation , they can remove or ban dealers for selling fake coins and not honoring wrong doing like refund , dealers have to pay a “fee” to conduct business through MA-shop… Most dealers I’ve encounter were helpful and honest I’ve had no problems , I’m a little confused why MA-shop didn’t help the OP with his counterfeit gold coin? MA-shop is more of “middle man” however EBay is same way they side with a seller all time … PayPal will honor refunds but is not always guaranteed but they do their best to try get you back your refund it all depends on seller as well 

Because the seller did not admit that he sold this counterfeit coin, and asked me to go to ma-shop with problems, and did not reply to my email, but ma-shop asked me to find a buyer. The first time I bought something on ma-shop was because I saw the fidelity policy of ma-shop. The ma-shop actually made me return the goods according to the seller's rules and asked me to pay the postage in advance, and there was a good chance that I would lose the fake money

 

 

[MelvinFee]

[MelvinFee]

On 2023/7/14 at AM5点19分, gmarguli said:

这话不公平。你不会听从商店的建议，因为你认为你会花光钱和硬币。然后你就会猛烈抨击ma-shops。 

他们有良好的声誉。我怀疑如果您遵循退货说明，您将收到退款。 

Because the seller did not admit that this was the coin he sold, I only agreed to return the coin after I sent emails to ma-shop for many times and customized the strict refund rules. The seller has not admitted it and has not admitted it until now. What about ma-shop's fidelity policy? Shouldn't I be compensated for selling fake goods? And I only asked for Ngc rating fee and customs fee, how I did not send ngc, I do not know it is fake at all，The seller buys me a fake coin and I have to pay 100€as the price, which is the result of my ma-shop, a fidelity currency policy platform

[MelvinFee]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:19 AM, gmarguli said:

This is not a fair thing to say. You're not going to follow the advice of ma-shops because you assume you'll be out both money and the coin. Then you bash ma-shops. 

They have a good reputation. I suspect if you follow the return instructions you will receive a refund. 

And according to the seller's policy, when this coin is mailed to the seller, it is entirely at the seller's discretion, do I have to pay more money because of this counterfeit coin?  The seller also asked me to pay the postage for the return in advance, and would only refund the coin if he believed it was his，The seller repeatedly refused that it was the coin he had sold