What caused this gold coin defect 1 1

[Bald Eagle #7]

Note mark at 4:00 on the rear of this coin

Coin came in capsule from Mint and then sent in capsule for grading

I am curious what caused this marking - Mint error or

[Greenstang]

It may be from an improperly mixed gold alloy.  
Gold has a small percentage of copper in it and sometimes it shows through the gold if not properly mixed.

[powermad5000]

I would think if there were a problem with the alloy that would be happening across the surface on both sides of the coin. It looks like some kind of surface stain to me. It appears to already be in an NGC holder. If so, what grade was it assigned?

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

I would think if there were a problem with the alloy that would be happening across the surface on both sides of the coin. It looks like some kind of surface stain to me. It appears to already be in an NGC holder. If so, what grade was it assigned?

Graded PF-68.  I did not see the mark when submitting for grading however I could have missed it.  Again submitted in capsule and returned in case.  I am not concerned with grading but puzzled as to what created it.

[J P M]

Like many Silver Eagles one day show a milk spot. Perhaps this mark did not show up until recently .

[powermad5000]

Hopefully someone more familiar with gold (I have some but it is 1% of my collection which is mostly silver) can expand this discussion. The fact that you do not know if it was on the coin before submitting can make this almost impossible to figure out. I would say if NGC had a situation where they stained it before grading, they would have informed you of that and probably sent it to NCS to try to remove the stain which would have been their mistake. 

As far as silver coins go, I can only think of the "milk" spots that develop on them. These spots can develop years after a coin has been graded and slabbed. I am curious to know if anyone knows if there is a similar situation that happens to gold coins. @GoldFinger1969 might be able to provide more information in this thread.

[powermad5000]

@J P M typed a shorter reply but has the same thinking 

[RWB]

The stain (or contamination) is at about 10 o'clock when the reverse is correctly rotated.

Was it there when you bought the coin? Was it present before you sent the coin off for "grading?"

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:28 PM, RWB said:

The stain (or contamination) is at about 10 o'clock when the reverse is correctly rotated.

Was it there when you bought the coin? Was it present before you sent the coin off for "grading?"

As stated above I am not sure if contamination was present when I sent it off.  Curious as to what would cause a stain like this as I have not seen before

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Tell us more about the coin, rather than have us do research.

Complete slab photos, both sides, "in-hand" inspection of the "stain," anything else you can think of.  How long have you owned the coin?  Did you just get it back from NGC recently, or years ago?

When taking photos to "bump up" PF contrast, has that made the stain much more noticeable than your in-hand viewing.  On my computer screen this coin has a diameter of 5 inches, thereby making the stain 1.5 inches long.  What is the coin's actual diameter?

I don't think it's a stain.  I'm thinking more along the lines of some sort of heat aberration.  Can you see the stain in the NGC Verification photos?

When you look at it in-hand, does the stain jump out at you?  If yes, then there is almost no way you would not have noticed it when received before grading.

You should ask NGC if they have ever seen anything like this discoloration.

[GoldFinger1969]

I have no idea....it looks like blue magic marker.  I have never seen that color on gold before. 

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:10 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Tell us more about the coin, rather than have us do research.

Complete slab photos, both sides, "in-hand" inspection of the "stain," anything else you can think of.  How long have you owned the coin?  Did you just get it back from NGC recently, or years ago?

When taking photos to "bump up" PF contrast, has that made the stain much more noticeable than your in-hand viewing.  On my computer screen this coin has a diameter of 5 inches, thereby making the stain 1.5 inches long.  What is the coin's actual diameter?

I don't think it's a stain.  I'm thinking more along the lines of some sort of heat aberration.  Can you see the stain in the NGC Verification photos?

When you look at it in-hand, does the stain jump out at you?  If yes, then there is almost no way you would not have noticed it when received before grading.

You should ask NGC if they have ever seen anything like this discoloration.

NGC Photos Attached 

"In Hand" looks the same as photo

I purchased the coin from the Mint in 2013 and it has been stored in a safe at my office ever since. I sent this coin to be graded last month with a lot of 50 coins and did not inspect them closely upon mailing.  I should have seen this upon receipt in 2013. Graded coin received back a couple of weeks ago.

First Spouse Coins are 1.043" in diameter

I asked NGC for comments and they responded that there was not a note with the file.  They forwarded to graders for comment and no response from them at this time.

 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Ok...

So we wait for NGC to reply.

BTW, it's a beautiful coin.

Incidentally, I just had new casement windows installed in my house, and the installers must have set a corner down on my hardwood floors and left slight gouge marks.  Never noticed it while they were here.

Stuff happens… that's life.

[Bald Eagle #7]

Here is the response from NGC

"Unfortunately, our graders nor the conservation team could not confirm what caused this toning. Please note there is nothing in our process that could cause this though. I am sorry for the confusion and inconvenience this has caused. Thank you for your patience while our team reviewed this. If you have any other questions, please let me know."

Is the capsule from the mint sealed?

Would this be a mint error?

Very interesting that NGC could not identify.  I told them I was not going to hold them responsible I just want to know what could cause it.

[EagleRJO]

Look like some type of heat damage to me.  Very strange.

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

Look like some type of heat damage to me.  Very strange.

Strange indeed - thanks for responding

[Sandon]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:45 PM, Bald Eagle #7 said:

I sent this coin to be graded last month with a lot of 50 coins and did not inspect them closely upon mailing.

  I would normally agree with those who said that this is a case of uneven mixing of the gold and copper in the blank from which this coin was struck, but as the coin is supposed to be composed of .9999 fine gold, this hardly seems possible. The lesson here is that one should carefully inspect and, if possible, photograph coins before sending them to a grading service, so that you can make a case that any change in their condition occurred while they are in the hands of the grading service.

   The "68" grade suggests that the coin already had the area of discoloration when it was graded.  NGC has only graded 2 Caroline Harrison pieces as PF 68, 43 as PF 69, and 307 as PF 70.  The NGC Price Guide lists a PF 68 at $1,115, a PF 69 at $1,265, and a PF 70 at $1,750, a seemingly unrealistic premium. Even if it could be proven that the coin didn't have the area of discoloration when submitted, it couldn't be proven that the coin would have otherwise graded "70", so in any event a claim would hardly have been worthwhile.

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:00 PM, Sandon said:

  I would normally agree with those who said that this is a case of uneven mixing of the gold and copper in the blank from which this coin was struck, but as the coin is supposed to be composed of .9999 fine gold, this hardly seems possible. The lesson here is that one should carefully inspect and, if possible, photograph coins before sending them to a grading service, so that you can make a case that any change in their condition occurred while they are in the hands of the grading service.

   The "68" grade suggests that the coin already had the area of discoloration when it was graded.  NGC has only graded 2 Caroline Harrison pieces as PF 68, 43 as PF 69, and 307 as PF 70.  The NGC Price Guide lists a PF 68 at $1,115, a PF 69 at $1,265, and a PF 70 at $1,750, a seemingly unrealistic premium. Even if it could be proven that the coin didn't have the area of discoloration when submitted, it couldn't be proven that the coin would have otherwise graded "70", so in any event a claim would hardly have been worthwhile.

I never intended on making a claim.  I am just very curious as to what caused it.  I agree with you regarding inspection prior to sending. Thanks

[Jason Abshier]

That does look odd looks almost heat torched it in that area or it touch something very hot … NGC doesn’t use heat to seal the edges of the slab when they they are being sonically sealed ? You’d figure heat is what bond two separate piece of plastic together so they seal to each other … NOT saying NGC is at fault here … a good suggestion from @Sandon noted to take photos of coins BEFORE you ship them off for grading … In fact it probably best to take photos of all your coins individually in your collection Raw and graded in slabs for insurance purposes in future if mishaps happens or theft and for keeping records … 

[EagleRJO]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:17 PM, Bald Eagle #7 said:

Coin came in capsule from Mint and then sent in capsule for grading

On 6/26/2023 at 4:33 PM, Bald Eagle #7 said:

Here is the response from NGC ... "... Please note there is nothing in our process that could cause this though"

Taking the NGC response at face value, if it never came out of the capsule, from the mint shipping it to NGC receiving it, that narrows it down a little to something which occurred at or an exposure to something at the mint.  Have you tried contacting the mint about this even though it was purchased quite a while ago.

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:14 AM, EagleRJO said:

Taking the NGC response at face value, if it never came out of the capsule, from the mint shipping it to NGC receiving it, that narrows it down a little to something which occurred at or an exposure to something at the mint.  Have you tried contacting the mint about this even though it was purchased quite a while ago.

I plan to - thanks

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Pursue the topic of Heat Treatment of gold.  Not so much for coins, but just generally.

Find pics and discussions on the Internet of difficulties that artists have faced dealing with it.

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:32 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Pursue the topic of Heat Treatment of gold.  Not so much for coins, but just generally.

Find pics and discussions on the Internet of difficulties that artists have faced dealing with it.

Thanks

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:32 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Pursue the topic of Heat Treatment of gold.  Not so much for coins, but just generally.

Find pics and discussions on the Internet of difficulties that artists have faced dealing with it.

Thanks will do

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:47 PM, Jason Abshier said:

That does look odd looks almost heat torched it in that area or it touch something very hot … NGC doesn’t use heat to seal the edges of the slab when they they are being sonically sealed ? You’d figure heat is what bond two separate piece of plastic together so they seal to each other … NOT saying NGC is at fault here … a good suggestion from @Sandon noted to take photos of coins BEFORE you ship them off for grading … In fact it probably best to take photos of all your coins individually in your collection Raw and graded in slabs for insurance purposes in future if mishaps happens or theft and for keeping records … 

Look like someone got bored with a miniature Crème Brûlée torch.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Also, another thing to try is take a loupe and give the defect a close look.  Look for an indentation or some raised aspect that should not be there.  See if the coloring hues are uninterrupted as they make their way around some sort of center.  See if the slight chatter on the front, above IN GOD WE TRUST, lines up with the defect on the reverse.

RWB's book From Mine to Mint goes into great detail on the way things used to occur in the making of coins.  I've only browsed through my copy, but if I had a mysterious defect like you do, my curiosity would have me pouring over any relevant chapters.  There must be videos on YouTube that show how cameo .9999 Au coins are made.

In some ways you're sort of lucky because you have a coin that is compelling you to learn more.  That's a good thing.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Look like someone got bored with a miniature Crème Brûlée torch.

I was going to say it had an appearance a little bit like base metal that is overheated when brazing with an oxyacetylene torch.

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:24 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Also, another thing to try is take a loupe and give the defect a close look.  Look for an indentation or some raised aspect that should not be there.  See if the coloring hues are uninterrupted as they make their way around some sort of center.  See if the slight chatter on the front, above IN GOD WE TRUST, lines up with the defect on the reverse.

RWB's book From Mine to Mint goes into great detail on the way things used to occur in the making of coins.  I've only browsed through my copy, but if I had a mysterious defect like you do, my curiosity would have me pouring over any relevant chapters.  There must be videos on YouTube that show how cameo .9999 Au coins are made.

In some ways you're sort of lucky because you have a coin that is compelling you to learn more.  That's a good thing.

Best to always look on the bright side.  Hard to believe no definitive answers in this group.  Whatever caused it surely has happened to other gold coins - you would think.  I appreciate everyone's comments.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I like mysteries and puzzles.  Here's my latest puzzling on this coin.  All long-shots.

1. It's a very beautiful coin design, especially on the reverse.
2. You got it directly from the Mint and it was never taken out of its Mint capsule before submittal to NGC.
   • Did you look at the coin when you first got it?
     • If you did and the defect was there at the time, do you think you would have noticed it?
   • Could anyone else have had access to your gold coins, maybe played around with them, opened this one's capsule, something went wrong, and they put it back unbeknownst to you?
     • Someone else substituted their identical coin for yours, nefariously?
3. Was the coin ever kept in direct sunlight where it may have received lens-like focused sunlight, possibly over many years, such that this defect occurred gradually on the same, small area?
   • Like a mirrored display case made of glass? Phoenix-like sunlight? A hot car dashboard?

[Bald Eagle #7]

On 6/28/2023 at 5:55 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

I like mysteries and puzzles.  Here's my latest puzzling on this coin.  All long-shots.

1. It's a very beautiful coin design, especially on the reverse.
2. You got it directly from the Mint and it was never taken out of its Mint capsule before submittal to NGC.
   • Did you look at the coin when you first got it?
     • If you did and the defect was there at the time, do you think you would have noticed it?
   • Could anyone else have had access to your gold coins, maybe played around with them, opened this one's capsule, something went wrong, and they put it back unbeknownst to you?
     • Someone else substituted their identical coin for yours, nefariously?
3. Was the coin ever kept in direct sunlight where it may have received lens-like focused sunlight, possibly over many years, such that this defect occurred gradually on the same, small area?
   • Like a mirrored display case made of glass? Phoenix-like sunlight? A hot car dashboard?

I obviously saw the coin when I removed it from the mint box and when I sent it to NGC however I evidently did not look closely.  I seems I would have spotted something this out of the ordinary.  Coming directly from the Mint I saw no reason to closely inspect.

No one had access to my office safe and the coin stayed in the safe in its mint capsule from within 24 hours of receipt to within 24 hours of shipping to NGC.  A true puzzle.