Cleaned Morgan? 1 1

[EagleRJO]

This 1880-CC Morgan dollar looks cleaned [with hairlines throughout].  Did NGC give this coin a pass as many of these were cleaned?

Edited May 15, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

  This shade of grey is natural for a circulated silver coin.  I would need to see the coin closer and at different angles and lightings to see if it has enough hairlines or an unusual sheen that could have led to an opinion that it was "cleaned". As the list prices for VF and XF of this issue are close together and an AU wouldn't be that much more expensive, you might want to wait for a somewhat higher-grade example anyway.

   Where do you get your information that "many of these were cleaned"?

[Jason Abshier]

Doesn’t looked cleaned to me looks like what I call “honest Circulation” it was used as it was intended to be … if your referring to blackish in her hair as if it was cleaned it doesn’t seem so , closer looks angle coin in right light see if all hairlines are going in same direction but by looking at your pictures it looks like an honest VF for the grade 

[EagleRJO]

On 5/14/2023 at 7:13 PM, Sandon said:

I would need to see the coin closer and at different angles and lightings to see if it has enough hairlines or an unusual sheen that could have led to an opinion that it was "cleaned".

I agree that the color and sheen appear to be natural.  The reason why I suspected it was cleaned at some point in the past is the presence of what appears to be hairline scratches throughout the fields on both the obverse and reverse.

It looks like the type of hairlines which would result from rubbing the coins with a silver polishing cloth, which I have done using some junk silver coins with similar results.  I attached higher resolution pics of both sides which should more clearly show these hairlines.

On 5/14/2023 at 7:13 PM, Sandon said:

Where do you get your information that "many of these were cleaned"?

I would have to go back and look, but I believe it was Bowers book on Morgans which notes that a while back, perhaps in the 1960's, it was thought to be acceptable to lightly clean circulated silver coins by like 90% of dealers and collectors.

And it was estimated that as a result many circulated Morgans (not mint state) in collections or stock were lightly cleaned with a cloth or perhaps soap and water while rubbing them with your fingers.  Both of these methods were noted to be common and acceptable at that time for circulated coind, and will produce hairlines in the fields.

On 5/14/2023 at 7:13 PM, Sandon said:

As the list prices for VF and XF of this issue are close together and an AU wouldn't be that much more expensive ...

Which is why I may be able to lowball the bid on this coin.

Edited May 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

The color looks normal to me as does the wear for a circulated Morgan. I am not sure if what you are considering as hairlines in the fields is nothing more than bag contact marks as would be found on a coin in a bag that happened to be moved and handled a lot more than other bags. I do have some low end MS specimens in my slabbed Morgans that have a lot of marks in fields which I would think are from overhandling of the bag they were in.

[J P M]

I think it looks normal. On many Morgan's in the 25 to 35 range you will see many fine scratches and they are mostly from circulation. I am not saying it has never been cleaned a lot can happen in a 143 years just that for what it is it looks ok to me. 

[Just Bob]

Just an observation: I wonder, if this coin had been raw, and had been posted by a newbie touting his new acquisition that Grandpa left him in his will, how many of us would have immediately told them that the coin had been cleaned. The coin does have hairlines, and it does have gunk in the protected areas, and it does look like many coins that have been posted on this forum that were pronounced "cleaned." But, being that it is already in one of our host's slabs, do we automatically give it the benefit of the doubt? 

Just food for thought.

[EagleRJO]

I have close to 100 Morgans in my complete circulation set, and have looked at countless hundreds more acquiring those.  I have never seen a Morgan in a slab with that many hairlines which wasn't graded Details - Cleaned.

It also looks almost exactly like some junk circulated silver coins I lightly cleaned with a silver polishing cloth, and not like any bag marked Morgans I have seen.  Some of the hairlines are fairly long and non-linear, which I don't think could be produced by being jostled around in a bank bag.  It also has gunk in protected areas as Bob noted.

This one would not be considered harshly cleaned.  And I am not criticizing our host for straight grading the coin as it appears to be very fine or subtle hairlines seen on a lot of older silver coins.  It was just that I have not seen one straight graded with that many hairlines, so it appeared to be a lightly cleaned coin that simply got a deserved pass by the TPG considering the age of a circulated coin.

Edited May 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 5/15/2023 at 10:55 AM, EagleRJO said:

I have close to 100 Morgans in my complete circulation set, and have looked at countless hundreds more acquiring those.  I have never seen a Morgan in a slab with that many hairlines which wasn't graded Details - Cleaned.

It also looks almost exactly like some junk circulated silver coins I lightly cleaned with a silver polishing cloth, and not like any bag marked Morgans I have seen.  Some of the hairlines are fairly long, which I dont think could be produced by being jostled around in a bank bag.  It also has gunk in protected areas as Bob noted.

This one would not be considered harshly cleaned.  And I am not criticizing our host for straight grading the coin as it appears to be very fine or subtle hairlines seen on a lot of older silver coins.  It was just that I have not seen one straight graded with so many hairlines, so it appeared to be a lightly cleaned coin that simply got a deserved pass by the TPG.

I just took a look  at the NGC Verification site and I could zoom right in on it. .As I said earlier it may have had a light cleaning at some point and may have even been overlooked but I still think it is a accurate assessment of this coin. The scratches are not all going in one direction like a rub would, they are very random. Lots of them but still if you can get it for a song then that's cool.

[EagleRJO]

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I just took a look  at the NGC Verification site and I could zoom right in on it.

@J P M That's what I did too, and it's much clearer.

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... it may have had a light cleaning at some point and may have even been overlooked but I still think it is a accurate assessment of this coin

I agree the grade seems to be a fairly accurate assessment of the coin based on the pics, even though I think it likely had a very light cleaning at some point.  Note that the coins I cleaned myself with a silver polishing cloth had a very similar random pattern as I was not just rubbing it in one direction.

I don't really think NGC missed the hairlines.  I think it's more likely that either they were not considered significant enough for a details grade or they made an allowance for a 140 yr old circulated coin.

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... sctatches ... lots of them but still if you can get it for a song then that's cool

I'm not really concerned with some random hairlines in the fields as they are fairly subtle and present on lots of older circulated coins, but was curious what others thought about that.  I will likely try to scoop it with some lowball bids, or better known as a good "JPM price". 

Edited May 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

Yes there are some hairlines on the coin.   The problem is that I cannot tell from these photos taken from one angle if those are from a cleaning or if they came from being slid across the bar top a few times.   Would need to hold the coin and rotate it, even then it could end up a coin flip for cleaned or just circulation slide marks, obviously NGC decided that in hand it looks more like circulation wear than a cleaning.   Maybe they are right, maybe not.

On 5/15/2023 at 6:50 AM, Just Bob said:

Just an observation: I wonder, if this coin had been raw, and had been posted by a newbie touting his new acquisition that Grandpa left him in his will, how many of us would have immediately told them that the coin had been cleaned. The coin does have hairlines, and it does have gunk in the protected areas, and it does look like many coins that have been posted on this forum that were pronounced "cleaned." But, being that it is already in one of our host's slabs, do we automatically give it the benefit of the doubt? 

Just food for thought.

You are correct, however, we can only offer the best (and sometimes the safest) opinions and advice we can from what are often very imperfect photos.   And while the opinion of cleaned is given frequently, I don't think the members are accusing anyone of cleaning those coins, only that the coins have that appearance.   Unfortunately many of those newbies take great offence to those honest and well-intentioned replies, written communication is less than perfect and we all (myself included) should and do strive to be as concise and correct as possible.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I do see the hairlines, however, I am not sure I feel strongly enough to override the graders decision.  Usually when I see hairlines, I immediately think "it's cleaned".  But, I would want to see this in-hand with the right light (that makes all the difference).

[EagleRJO]

On 5/15/2023 at 4:08 PM, Coinbuf said:

... while the opinion of cleaned is given frequently, I don't think the members are accusing anyone of cleaning those coins, only that the coins have that appearance.

I occasionally see "Details - Cleaned" coin coffin labels by one of the big boys and just shake my head as I couldn't see any indications of the coin being cleaned, where they are possibly just going by the overall appearance.

On 5/15/2023 at 4:58 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Usually when I see hairlines, I immediately think "it's cleaned"

Same here, depending on how extensive and visible the hairlines are with just coin {or slab) in-hand or at like 5x magnification.  For the subject coin they are clearly visible throughout the fields on both sides, but that is from viewing high resolution photos enlarged.

On 5/15/2023 at 4:58 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

... I would want to see this in-hand with the right light (that makes all the difference).

If I end up scooping the coin with a "JPM bid" I will check back in after I have cracked the coin coffin to set it free and taken a close look with the coin literally "in-hand", and also viewing it with my mag glass. 

[J P M]

If you crack it It will never grade the same again 

[powermad5000]

I don't see gunk inside the P of Pluribus, or the inside the two 8's, and the hardest spot to try to get it out from if it was cleaned would be the insides of the CC's. I didn't see it in those spots when I first looked at it and I didn't see it in the closeups. Besides, not everybody's hands are clean when they touch coins. What if someone with dirty hands was rubbing the coin between his fingers out of boredom one random day to put all those hairlines in it? I am going to hold to my position that the coin was not cleaned.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/15/2023 at 7:35 PM, J P M said:

If you crack it It will never grade the same again 

NP, it would just go in my collection of raw coins anyway!  But if I wanted it to grade higher I could just send it in to ANACS.  

[Sandon]

On 5/15/2023 at 8:57 PM, EagleRJO said:

But if I wanted it to grade higher I could just send it in to ANACS. 

 I wouldn't! In my experience ANACS tends to be more conservative than many realize and perhaps more likely to describe the coin as "cleaned".

[powermad5000]

I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post and didn't convey the message properly, is that hairlines are not necessarily just an indication of a coin having been cleaned, but could also be caused by improper handling of a coin with dirty fingers rubbing on the surface. This secondary condition would be better described as "damage" hairlines from improper handling.

If the graders determined the hairlines on this Morgan were not from cleaning, but improper handling, then that could be why they straight graded it. I know NGC will give a details grade for scratches, but I think that is given for actual gouges, and not just hairlines from bad handling practices.

Edited May 16, 2023 by powermad5000
More info

[EagleRJO]

On 5/15/2023 at 7:35 PM, J P M said:

If you crack it It will never grade the same again 

I have my "Slab Cracker" tool from Wizard Coin Supply (attached) ready to go. 

On 5/15/2023 at 9:52 PM, Sandon said:

 I wouldn't! In my experience ANACS tends to be more conservative than many realize and perhaps more likely to describe the coin as "cleaned".

I was jk, and would likely just keep it raw.  But I remember hearing a while back that they were a little more realistic with older circulated coins that may have had a light cleaning.  Maybe that has changed or it was just a rumor.