1799 8 Reales Coin 0

[Mojorkr]

First time poster here! I have this 1799 8 Reales coin and being a newbie I would like to learn more about it, but apart from finding price charts on this site, I haven’t been able to find much? From what I’ve been able to find out is that this was from the Lima mint (the IJ on the back) and that it may have a ‘chopmark’ on the back left pillar and perhaps on the front right by his chin? Is there a good site you could direct me to that may have more on the history of these coins? From the NGC charts, it shows the mintage for this particular year in Lima at over 5 million, yet there are no mintage numbers from Mexico, yet they have similar value? Also, do chop marks add to the value? Is there any chance this would have come from a shipwreck find? What sort of grading would you give to this particular coin? Thanks for looking! 
 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Mojorkr

[JKK]

It could be simply battered, but some aspects of it make me wonder about authenticity. What does it weigh? One decimal place, please. I notice a few chops on it, but those don't confirm authenticity. For one thing, chops also could be faked. Another clue is that this issue is evidently not common; there is a reason no one counterfeits, for example, 1964 Jeffs--but they counterfeit the holy living out of 09-S VDBs.

[powermad5000]

I am no expert on these but I do have a couple. I don't really think the coin you have is a counterfeit although it never hurts to weigh it. I don't see the shipwreck effect on the surface as the saltwater is mildly corrosive to the surface and puts tiny pits all across the entire surfaces of both sides of the coin. Chopmarks were used by merchants to test if the coin was actually silver as their own way of "checking counterfeits" and collectors see them more as damage so they generally lower the price. I have attached a photo of one of mine made at Mo Mexico. I would estimate the details to be near the grade level of XF. Your coin also has a rim ding, so no matter what between the chopmarks and the rim issue it would get a details grade. Also, a lot of these coins have been cleaned at one time or another. Hopefully someone else on here can provide you with more information.

[Mojorkr]

Thank you gentlemen for your replies! In response to JKK, from looking up the Lima database here, the 1799 year was the highest mintage out of all the years from 1791 to 1808. Regardless, it could still be counterfeit and I'm just wondering what aspects of the coin make you think so? Unfortunately I don't have immediate access to a scale, but once I do I'll post the value. What weight should I be looking for? And I was only asking if it might be from a shipwreck as it would add to the 'historical value' for me....along with the chipmarks I feel it adds more to the story behind the coin, as in who actually had it in their possesion over the hundreds of years. To me this aspect of collecting is more important than actual value (although that's nice to know too!)  

I was tempted to clean it to bring out the oringinal finish, but then came across all the warnings of 'true' collectors that say this only takes away from the coins' value. I don't quite understand this as the coin Powermad5000 posted personally looks much better to me than the one that I have! And also, why would they sell so many different types of coin cleaners if you weren't supposed to? I did read that olive oil can be used as the most 'natural' way of cleaning, but at this point I'm really not sure what to do, as this is the oldest coin that I own.

 

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the forum

If you want to clean your coins, the only way without chancing devaluating it is to soak it in acetone.   
This will not attack the surfaces and will clean off any gunk. I usually soak my coins for 24 hrs then rinse with
distilled water and let dry. Do not in any way try rubbing it.

[Sandon]

     Welcome to the NGC chat board.

    The encrustations on the coin are likely corrosion products or other "environmental damage".  They likely include chemical compounds that are partly created from metal that was originally part of the coin's surface. The original surface cannot be restored. Attempts to remove the encrustations through abrasive or chemical means (a.k.a. improper "cleaning") will further damage the surface and likely leave pits, roughness, scratches, and/or an unnatural appearance, all of which are even more undesirable to collectors and others who cherish historical artifacts such as this coin.  The color on the "cleaned" example posted by @powermad5000is a characteristically unnatural and ugly shade of gray. That coin probably had no encrustations. Your coin would turn out even worse if "cleaned". Please leave it alone!

   Soaking the coin in acetone (a solvent) as suggested by @Greenstangis safe and will remove surface dirt. However, it will not remove corrosion products and the like.

   According to the Standard Catalog of World Coins, 18th century edition (1997), an 8 real piece such as this should weigh 25.00 grams.

   

   

   

Edited March 7, 2023 by Sandon

[Mojorkr]

Thank you Greenstang and Sandon for your speedy and educational replies!!!

Since the issue of it being possibly counterfeit was brought up, I have now compared it to known exemplars and am quite convinced this is the real deal, but will eventually weigh it for peace of mind.

Thanks again to NGC chat board and its wonderful community!! 👍🏻👍🏻

 

[JKK]

Without going into too much detail--we do not do that here with regard to counterfeiting, to avoid giving helpful feedback to the bad guys who keep an eye on the board--the details look muddier and rougher than I'd expect. Some of that could be wear and damage; I do not know. These circulated in the Far East, as you know, and any coin that left a lot of examples in China is a major counterfeiting target. Doesn't mean that it is; it means that careful authentication is of above average importance.

[JKK]

Oh, and the reason they sell cleaners is to make money from the vast army of new collectors who imagine a coin has to be "shinny" (they usually can't spell, either) and that if they just shine it up, it'll somehow be more valuable, and no one will be able to tell. They are incorrect. We nearly always can tell when it's been cleaned. There are times, places, and people where the stars align for cleaning to make sense. Those people know who they are. Anyone who isn't one of them should be very hesitant, and should treat off-the-shelf cleaners as dangerous to coin value.

[EagleRJO]

Counterfeits are a problem with these coins (one of the most counterfeited coins), even with common date/mark coins, and they are more difficult to authenticate as there are not comprehensive die variety resources to look up the coins and identify die markers for comparison.

Also, the possible die variations are mind boggling.  Apparently, these coins were not struck with dies that came from a set of master dies, but instead each individual unique working die was created by hand with punches.  And there would be separate punches for legends, lettering, portraits, crown, pillars, shields, and the date and mark.  So there is the possibly of hundreds of different working dies for each year, and where those punches can be replicated pretty closely.

I am interested in adding some 8 Reals to my collection, and raw coins are a hands down preference.  So a little while ago I started digging into these coins.  I have acquired two die variety books and a book on counterfeit 8 Reales so far, and was focusing on details of the individual punches instead of the entire coin die.  It's still turning out to be a process to authenticate these coins which is a little more difficult than US coins.

From the digging I have been doing there is very limited info on the web about 8 Reales, which is why I purchased several books on the subject.  Also, other than soaking the coin in acetone as mentioned, I would leave the coin alone and maybe just put it in your own holder.

Edited March 12, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mojorkr]

Thanks for the fantastic information Eagle!!! I’m wondering how they actually figured out all of the combinations in order to write multiple books in the subject!?! So if there are that many different combos out there, wouldn’t the most accurate way of telling if they were counterfeit or not would be to just weigh them? I found a tutorial here https://pre1946silver.com/2022/05/13/fake-spanish-8-reales-comparison/ that gives a quick overview of how to spot fakes, with differences in weight being a dead giveaway. Or are some counterfeits out there that good they can actually weigh the same as a genuine coin?

 

 

 

[Sandon]

    Counterfeits of more valuable coins may be the correct weight and composition. This is true of a number of counterfeit U.S. gold coins made in the Middle East between the 1950s and the 1970s, some of which I've read are actually heavier or finer than the genuine coins. Counterfeits intended to be passed as money would generally be of the wrong weight and/or composition.

   Counterfeits may also be made from dies or molds modeled from genuine coins, which would match known die varieties.  These are usually identified by the counterfeits having mushy details, tooling, or showing exactly the same blemishes as were on the model coin.  For examples, go to the "Resources" tab on the NGC home page and review some of the articles under the topic "Counterfeit Detection".

Edited March 8, 2023 by Sandon

[powermad5000]

I don't recommend YouTube videos, but there is a fantastic ANA video on counterfeit coins. It is about two hours long though, so you'll need to devote some time to watching it, but it really covers a whole lot of things to be on the lookout for.

[EagleRJO]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:49 PM, Mojorkr said:

Thanks for the fantastic information Eagle!!! I’m wondering how they actually figured out all of the combinations in order to write multiple books in the subject!?! So if there are that many different combos out there, wouldn’t the most accurate way of telling if they were counterfeit or not would be to just weigh them? I found a tutorial here https://pre1946silver.com/2022/05/13/fake-spanish-8-reales-comparison/ that gives a quick overview of how to spot fakes, with differences in weight being a dead giveaway. Or are some counterfeits out there that good they can actually weigh the same as a genuine coin?

Thanks for sharing that post about 8 Reales.  Checking the weight and dimensions is a good indicator, meaning that even if they are correct it doesn't mean the coin is authentic.  However, the post just skips past the most important part which is checking the designs on both sides.

For 8 Reales, unfortunately, there was a significant shortage of coins for use in commerce during the late 1700's into the 1800's.  This led to a significant number of 8 Reales, including common dates and marks, with the correct composition, dimensions and weight being struck by private entities and put into circulation.

While there could be hundreds of variations of coin dies in a year, the punches used to make the working dies were standardized by the Spanish Royal Mint.  So comparing the individual design elements, such as the crown and shield on the reverse, with known legitimate 8 Reales is the way to authenticate these coins.

[EagleRJO]

I don't have access to my die and more importantly punch information, and will take a look for you when I can.  In the meantime, could you post the weight to 0.01g as well as the diameter and thickness to 0.1mm as indicators.

It would also be helpful to post pictures of the edge all the way around the coin showing the pattern and any changes.

[World Colonial]

Brad Yonaka has written a reference covering die varieties for all the pillar coinage mints (all denominations) and Mexico portrait, all denominations.  I own all three books.

I don't collect any portrait coinage but would still like to have one for the other mints, if he ever writes it.  The Mexico reference includes the Lion & Castle quarter real which I do collect.  This is my avatar coin.

[Mojorkr]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:26 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't have access to my die and more importantly punch information, and will take a look for you when I can.  In the meantime, could you post the weight to 0.01g as well as the diameter and thickness to 0.1mm as indicators.

It would also be helpful to post pictures of the edge all the way around the coin showing the pattern and any changes.

I am actually not in possession of the coin quite yet as I have just bought it online. The pictures I posted were those provided by the seller. I will post measurements as soon as I can. Thanks again to everyone in this wonderful community! 👍🏻👍🏻

[J P M]

On 3/12/2023 at 11:14 PM, Mojorkr said:

I am actually not in possession of the coin quite yet as I have just bought it online. The pictures I posted were those provided by the seller. I will post measurements as soon as I can. Thanks again to everyone in this wonderful community! 👍🏻👍🏻

Well I wish you well on your purchase. If you can post some shots and details when you get the coin I am sure you will get the honest answers you are looking for from the members here..