Grading a proof? 1 1

[Eagles In Vermont]

I wanted to ask:

Is it worth the time and expense to have a proof from the mint (boxed, newly bought, with a COA.) graded and slabbed? Or does the original packing and protective round the coin is presently encapsulated in deem this unnecessary?

[EagleRJO]

Keep the coin in the original government packaging (OGP) as there is a possibility of the coin being subjected to contaminants if removed.  It would also be a waste of about $80 to have it graded when there really is no reason to have that done for the average coin.

[JT2]

There really isnt any reason to slab modern proof coins.  Keep them in OGP and enjoy them.  If you try to remove them and place them in flips to send to a grading company then you could possibly introduce contaminants and ruin the coin  

[VKurtB]

But at the same time understand that THOUSANDS of collectors do precisely that - have brand new coins encapsulated by third party grading services. Those services are only too glad to deposit your check, wondering all the way to the bank how stupid collectors have to get. 

[EagleRJO]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:21 AM, JT2 said:

If you try to remove them and place them in flips to send to a grading company then you could possibly introduce contaminants and ruin the coin

You could also end up with minor contact marks on the coin similar to cabinet rub marks called "flip rub" from sliding the coin in and out of the flip.  And how careful do you think the TPG's are with the flips trying to crank through coins like making cupcakes.

Also note that for the average coin from the mint you will likely end up loosing money submitting it for grading when you compare what you could sell the coin for in the OGP compared to what you could sell the coin for slabbed less the cost of grading.

Edited March 2, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

The main reason you see modern proofs graded is for registry buyers who want the PF70 coins for their sets which allows the sellers to maximize their profit.   If you do not need the coin for a registry set, or want to sell and hope to max out the selling price, then there is no reason at all to take the risk of damaging the coin.

As a side note, you can send the coin into the TPG's in the government packaging Kointaine and the TPG's will remove it there.   This does not negate the possibility of contaminates or hairlines, but it does help protect the coin better during shipping to the TPG.   There is a small extra fee if you want the original packaging returned to you with the graded coin.

[Sandon]

    In my opinion, there is no reason to send modern, collector issue coins that are housed in their government capsules or sealed holders to grading services. The coins are protected from the elements, they are nearly always superb gems, and if you bought them from the mint there is no doubt as to their authenticity. Contrary to popular belief, grading service holders aren't airtight, and the grading services don't guarantee that coins in their holders won't develop toning or spots over time.

[powermad5000]

I agree with the others on this topic and mostly with Coinbuf's statement. On modern proofs, the TPG holder is typically going to cost more than the coin inside it when things are all said and done, sometimes even in the case of a PF 70 UC depending on how many the mint made. Modern proof values are usually static as the mintage number is well known and they are not placed in circulation so it is not hard for a collector to find high quality proof coins in the marketplace.

I will also add in that Sandon's statement is true, but toning or spots can develop on a coin even in the Mint packaging. The process of striking a coin causes a change in the metal of the planchet from the pressure used and there is no way of determining whether or not a specific planchet after being struck will develop toning or spots even in the OGP. It can happen shortly after being packaged or it can develop years after.

[Eagles In Vermont]

Thank you all, it sounds like good advice to just leave the proof as it is and keep it safely put away. I also wanted to mention that I will be collecting ASE's and Morgans almost exclusively. My profile name has been updated to the title Eagles in Vermont. Thank you for your answers. I've delved into this "hobby" whole hog, but not without doing some extensive and careful research, and not without understanding I will probably have bought and will buy the occasional forgery. However, it seems all good for the most part so far and I've been a very careful and meticulous buyer- with a few "ow what the hell" buys tossed in there, haha!

Anywho:

Good day (or night), and best wishes and thanks all very much for taking the time to answer my questions.  

[EagleRJO]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:15 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

I also wanted to mention that I will be collecting ASE's and Morgans almost exclusively.

I am still working on my complete circulation set of Morgans, but before jumping into that collection I also did a bunch of research, read up on the coin, and spent countless hours on learning how to grade those coins.  If Morgans are going to be a focus I would recommend a book by Bowers titled "Morgan Silver Dollars" (see attached).  There are also many topics on this forum about grading and evaluating Morgans.

In selecting coins (to evaluate in-hand for raw coins no matter where you purchase them) I would completely avoid or be extremely cautious with any raw coins from eBay as they are almost all over-graded coins or counterfeits on that site.  This is where being able to grade and evaluate Morgans becomes important, so you can avoid counterfeits and make/bid reasonable offers or amounts on coins.

Also try to stick with larger reputable dealers like Northeast or Apmex, who have a good reputation, a one week no questions asked return policy to give you some time to evaluate coins after you get them in-hand, and also have a good selection of slabbed and raw Morgans.

On 3/1/2023 at 1:15 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

... and not without understanding I will probably have bought and will buy the occasional forgery

You can help avoid buying counterfeits of Morgans by having a 40x loupe or a scope and becoming familiar with a site called VamWorld ...

Link to VamWorld 2.0

The site has a complete listing of all known Morgan varieties, with descriptions and pictures of die markers.  If you can attribute a Morgan you are evaluating to a particular VAM number, with matching die markers, you can be pretty sure it's not a counterfeit.  It is not the end-all-tool for confirming legit Morgans as there are some counterfeits that even copy the die markers.  However, there is typically a loss of detail in general and in particular of the die markers with those counterfeits.

You can also of course post coins here on the forum where you have questions about the grade or if its a counterfeit.  There are many very experienced and knowledgeable members on this forum who are willing to take the time to help newer collectors like yourself, if you are willing to put time and effort into learning.  The help I have received on the forum as I progressed thru collecting Morgans has been invaluable, and is greatly appreciated.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

Edited March 1, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Eagles In Vermont]

Well, that will probably put an end to my ebay spree for silver eagles, haha joke is likely on me. I gambled there and I knew it, to be fair. I strongly suspect the authenticity of my so called 1986 gem proofs from ebay already. They shine just a little too brightly. I did get one 86 that matches very well with the registry here and that at least seems to be something. I/ve bought quite a few others from a large bullion site though, and they are probably OK- I hope. I did find a pcgs from there I bought that did not hit with their verification site. I sent it back. Most of my NGC's seem to be hitting ok with pretty well matching photos (even most of the bay ones) but that doesn't mean they are legit, I know. I did the ebay thing because I figured a few would turn out pretty well, hopefully enough to offset losses I undoubtedly incurred- fortunate I guess that its early in the game for me and spent around 1500 total. I simply tossed the dice in the air and held my breath. Foolish I know, but I wanted to do it anyway. I do really VERY much appreciate the advice- I will probably bite the bullet and submit a few of them all for verification and regrading by NGC.. Overgraded coins seems to make the most sense to my thinking. The proof eagles from 2022 seem pretty decent on close inspection and the photos seem to match up pretty well, but oh well. Guess I will have to wait and see. Caveat Emptor as they say. Thanks for all the info and the link. Again, Much Appreciated!

[JT2]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:23 AM, EagleRJO said:

I would recommend a book by Bowers titled "Morgan Silver Dollars" (see attached). 

Very good book and good series of books if you want to learn about a particular type coin.  i have about 5 of these.

[powermad5000]

I have a slight disagreement with Eagle's statement that all coins on eBay are bad. I believe that you need to have the knowledge and expertise to buy safely from any internet site, but not everything on eBay is a counterfeit or a scam. As for the overgrading, in my humble opinion, EVERY seller overgrades their coins to make more money off the sale and that applies to internet, live auctions (with reserves) and coin shows. Any seller can write MS 65 on a cardboard coin flip to try to get the buyer to bite. It is up to the buyer to make the determination with the knowledge of what they are actually looking at to put the coin back down and walk away from sellers who think all of their coins are worth top premium dollars.

That said, you are doing due diligence and fact checking your slabs against the scans and you should keep doing that. Also, you should invest in a scale that reads to a minimum of two decimal places and weigh your purchases of raw coins. For the scale, keep away from that cheap AWS Chinese dog poop pocket scale that costs about $10 and invest in a high quality scale. I recommend Amston Scales. Your eagles should weigh 1.000 troy oz. (31.103 grams). Morgan dollars should weigh 26.73 grams.

My first rule when buying over the internet is to NEVER buy from a seller that does not accept returns. If I get the coin in hand and it doesn't look as pleasing as it did in the photos, I should be able to return it and get my money back. I don't care if it is even a tiny ding that didn't appear in the photo, but it does at an angle in hand, if I am not happy with the coin for whatever reason, I want to have the ability to get my money back. My second rule is to buy from reputable sellers who have tons of positive feedback. There are a lot of sellers on eBay that have guarantees of the coins they sell being genuine such as Great Southern, Macvanderstein, APMEX, and Round Table. Read their whole listing and look for their disclaimer that they guarantee they only sell genuine coins. Even one mistake can get by one of them, but knowing what you buy and the ability to return if there is a mistake made by the seller should have you covered.

Learn as much as you can about ASE's and Morgans. Sure, it is risky jumping in without proper knowledge, but I don't want you to get discouraged from collecting. I am sure all of us on here has gotten burned at one point or another whether it was from lack of knowledge, or just something we missed. Check out all of your purchases you already made, and verify they are all legit and then move ahead from there. 

I don't want the OP to get discouraged and just give up. I do want to see him gain the knowledge and experience to keep going.

[J P M]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:46 PM, powermad5000 said:

I have a slight disagreement with Eagle's statement that all coins on eBay are bad. I believe that you need to have the knowledge and expertise to buy safely from any internet site, but not everything on eBay is a counterfeit or a scam. As for the overgrading, in my humble opinion, EVERY seller overgrades their coins to make more money off the sale and that applies to internet, live auctions (with reserves) and coin shows. Any seller can write MS 65 on a cardboard coin flip to try to get the buyer to bite. It is up to the buyer to make the determination with the knowledge of what they are actually looking at to put the coin back down and walk away from sellers who think all of their coins are worth top premium dollars.

That said, you are doing due diligence and fact checking your slabs against the scans and you should keep doing that. Also, you should invest in a scale that reads to a minimum of two decimal places and weigh your purchases of raw coins. For the scale, keep away from that cheap AWS Chinese dog poop pocket scale that costs about $10 and invest in a high quality scale. I recommend Amston Scales. Your eagles should weigh 1.000 troy oz. (31.103 grams). Morgan dollars should weigh 26.73 grams.

My first rule when buying over the internet is to NEVER buy from a seller that does not accept returns. If I get the coin in hand and it doesn't look as pleasing as it did in the photos, I should be able to return it and get my money back. I don't care if it is even a tiny ding that didn't appear in the photo, but it does at an angle in hand, if I am not happy with the coin for whatever reason, I want to have the ability to get my money back. My second rule is to buy from reputable sellers who have tons of positive feedback. There are a lot of sellers on eBay that have guarantees of the coins they sell being genuine such as Great Southern, Macvanderstein, APMEX, and Round Table. Read their whole listing and look for their disclaimer that they guarantee they only sell genuine coins. Even one mistake can get by one of them, but knowing what you buy and the ability to return if there is a mistake made by the seller should have you covered.

Learn as much as you can about ASE's and Morgans. Sure, it is risky jumping in without proper knowledge, but I don't want you to get discouraged from collecting. I am sure all of us on here has gotten burned at one point or another whether it was from lack of knowledge, or just something we missed. Check out all of your purchases you already made, and verify they are all legit and then move ahead from there. 

I don't want the OP to get discouraged and just give up. I do want to see him gain the knowledge and experience to keep going.

I have also made some purchases on eBay and agree with powermad5000 it depends on the seller. I have been happy so far. 

[EagleRJO]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:46 PM, powermad5000 said:

I have a slight disagreement with Eagle's statement that all coins on eBay are bad.

I didn't say they were all bad, I said that "I would completely avoid or be extremely cautious with any raw coins from eBay as they are almost all over-graded coins or counterfeits on that site."

I stand by that statement based on my own personal experience related just to raw Morgan silver dollars on eBay, which was the subject of my comments.  Over the past year I have spent countless hours searching, grading, evaluating, bidding on and purchasing coins for a complete circulation set of Morgans I am working on.  Virtually all of the sellers seem to overstate the grade of the coins as a way to increase the sale price, and occasionally you will encounter a counterfeit.  Sometimes there are sellers who accurately list the grade of a coin, but that is the exception.

The intent of my comments was not to convey that all the coins on eBay are bad, just that the op needs to be able to accurate grade raw coins and identify counterfeits for the coins being offered for sale.  This is necessary in order to avoid buying a counterfeit coin, and make appropriate offers or bids on coins consistent with the correct grade.  If the op is unable to grade raw Morgans or look for indicators of a counterfeit I think they should completely avoid eBay for raw Morgans as stated.

Edited March 4, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

I apologize Eagle if my comment towards yours caused some confusion here. I was trying to clear that up. When I read that, I took it as a newbie reading that and it kind of came across that eBay coins should be avoided. I think just about every seller everywhere overgrades their coins to make a few more bucks. It seemed the OP after reading that kind of threw up his hands and I was trying to not let him get discouraged. I agree that the OP needs to be able to evaluate what the purchase is before making it, hence my suggestions.

I have been working a full set of Morgans for 45+ years. Trying to get it in a minimum of MS 62 with exception of key dates. I am about halfway. Splashed with some VAM's and some MS 65s and MS 66s so far. It is a rewarding pursuit.

[EagleRJO]

@powermad5000I agree the op shouldn't completely give up on eBay.  But first learn how to grade and evaluate Morgans, and stick to slabbed ones until he can do that.

Good luck with your complete set of MS grade Morgans.  For my complete circulation set I have been targeting XF as a minimum grade and that has been really hard for some of the coins which gets expensive.  I have had to make a few exceptions myself dropping to VF.  And I may have to drop one more grade for several from the 1890's, but I will have to see what is left in my coin slush fund or wait a bit longer.

Btw, are you using the NGC Registry Set for Circulating Morgans with 105 coins as a guide for your complete set?  That is what I have been using as a guide, and luckily they do not consider the 1895 (P) Proof (small house priced coin) a circulated coin.

[Eagles In Vermont]

Thanks again for the great info and even encouragement from several of you. I won't give up on ebay entirely but there are a few sellers I won't repeat buy from, thanks in large part to some of this advice. I got some pretty good coins too and I'm getting a good eye for lettering, numbers, angles in photos, shine, etc. and photo comparison. My eye so far tells me at least five of my purchases are questionable and even stupid haha but instinct and my eye also tell me I scored a few good ones- even a couple of EXCELLENT ones. I am into this and I figure stupid folks don't ask these questions soon enough at risk of looking naive; the smart ones do and I am trying to be smart.

I have another question: I bought a coin with a notation in parentheses near the grade, and it reads (023GCM). I am guessing this probably means some sort of cleaning, flaw or depreciating defect but I keep searching what is GCM and can't find it. Can anyone help? (I at least only spent fifty bucks, haha.)

[EagleRJO]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:10 PM, Eagles In Vermont said:

I bought a coin with a notation in parentheses near the grade, and it reads (023GCM). I am guessing this probably means some sort of cleaning, flaw or depreciating defect but I keep searching what is GCM and can't find it. Can anyone help?

Which grading company is that from?  Maybe your could start a new topic posting the label and asking what it is.  If it's a raw coin or after-market slab it may just be the sellers ID for that coin, but putting it in a new topic will likely get you answers.

[Eagles In Vermont]

Eagle RJO: It's an NGC. Awaiting shipment now. Yeah I might post it and ask when I get it. TY. 

[powermad5000]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:17 PM, EagleRJO said:

Btw, are you using the NGC Registry Set for Circulating Morgans with 105 coins as a guide for your complete set?  That is what I have been using as a guide, and luckily they do not consider the 1895 (P) Proof (small house priced coin) a circulated coin.

Thanks Eagle! I am not in any registry sets. I am not a registry collector, just a collector of really nice coins. I attempt to buy raw coins at a 1:10 ratio (buy for 1 and worth 10). My first ever coin was a worn 1921 Morgan and I just could not get past the design. Still my all time favorite coin series! With a better job came better coins and more Morgans. One of my larger purchases was $2,200 for a 20 Morgan roll on eBay. Turned out I lucked out on the roll and it was worth what I paid for it even after sending them all in for grading. It had 3 CC's in the roll, 2 83's and an 84. Two got 63 and one got 63+. I was happy as a clam! The rest of the roll quickly filled a lot of other holes I had and the worst graded 62 with the best grading 64. I can see the dangers of buying rolls and I took a chance but got lucky. I could see how easily it could be to invest in a roll like that and get them all back with Details Cleaned tags. Before the roll I already had acquired about 30 Morgans on my own and have gotten more since the roll bringing me about halfway through the set. I have some PL's splashed in there too, but have yet to acquire a raw DMPL. My highest is a 66+.

Off Morgans, I also seem to fancy Trade dollars. I have half the set of Peace dollars. Still trying to put together the entire set of Franklin Halves in minimum 64 FBL and I am at about 70 percent on those. I have Liberty Nickels, Indian heads, Wheaties, Seated Liberty quarters and halves, Barber quarters and dimes, early copper large and half cents, Washingtons, Roosys, Mercs, Susan B's, Ikes, a half dime, 2 cents, 3 cent nickels, Trimes, 8 reales, some ancients, flying eagle cents, plenty of mint errors...........I'm literally all over the place in my collection. What happened was when I started working a better job, I was able to get better coins and my collecting changed drastically. Now I look for high quality pieces (even AU doesn't appeal to me anymore unless its something really special). I have gone after some low mintage coins and those I am ok if they are G or even Poor as long as they straight grade no details. Basically, my collecting style now doesn't lend to putting a registry set together unless it would be for the Franklins. And all these coins bring me a lot of joy!

[EagleRJO]

@powermad5000I don't have a registry set either, but I use what NGC lists as circulated coins as a guide for my collection, which has 105 coins.  I buy almost all raw coins, but if desired when I was done I could submit all the coins for grading and enter a complete set in the registry.  See the following link for the NGC Circulation Issue Morgan Dollars, and click on "See eligible coins" up near the top just below the set description to see each coin included.  I have about a dozen of the more expensive coins in the set to finish, which I am just being patient with to get at a reasonable price.

https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/united-states/dollars/54/

Sorry to get a little off topic, so back to the op's subject.  It sounds like you got very lucky with the roll of Morgans and the seller made a mistake.  Usually the seller puts two nice enders which might indicate a valuable coin in the roll with the enders date and mark, but that's not the case, and then they put all average commons worth about $30 to $40 each in between in an older style brown wax paper like roll, which is "unsearched" (yea, right).  So you end up paying considerably more than the coins in the  roll are worth.

About buying coins on eBay, I wouldn't completely avoid that site as you can learn a lot trying to grade and evaluate raw coins you see for sale, and just stick with buying slabbed coins until you get good with evaluating raw coins.  First go to the following topic about Resources, and at least get the Red Book and ANA Grading standards as a start:  Link: Resources

Read through the introductions and then sections on Morgans in the Red Book and the ANA reference.  Then look up slabbed Morgans on eBay, or sites like Great Collections, trying not to see the grade, and grade them yourself after which you can check the grade on the label.  You can also go to the PCG$ webpage which has a bunch of graded Morgans that are specific to each year and mark to compare to the slabbed coin (and then later raw coins).  Once you select a year and mark, click "View More Images" in blue below the large coin at the top, which takes you to a whole list of pics for graded Morgans for that specific year and mark.  Link: PCGS Morgan CoinFacts

After a while you should start to get the hang of accurately grading the coins yourself.  I think the most difficult ones are the mint state (MS) coins.  When I was doing this I just put the MS coins into 3 categories following the NGC adjectival grading for mint state coins including BU (MS60 to MS62), Choice BU (MS63 to MS64), and Gem BU (MS65 to MS70), which I think is close enough just starting out.

Then you can start looking at raw coins for sale on eBay, coming up with your own grade for those coins so you can make more reasonable offers or bids on coins.  Note that while you are evaluating the coins also try to attribute the coin with a specific VAM number as indicated above, but sometimes you will need to have the coin in-hand to look at that level of detail.

Good luck and happy Morgan hunting!

Edited March 4, 2023 by EagleRJO