Thoughts on Interesting Purchase 0

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Hello all, I was eyeing a 1952-D Carver on HA. It was a 66+ PCGS with CAC. I had done some research and BV 2600 and previous GC prices were between 1900 - 3200 for 2022 (in fact the 3200 was the Greg Bingham collection that I asked about in another thread because 6 months prior it sold as a 66) and HA previous sales were little older but in the same range. The coin sold for 4400 on HA. So the coins sold on HA and GC for 50% plus over BV within 2 weeks of each other. I haven't been actively looking at Ebay but since I lost both auctions due high prices, I found the coin for 1700 (same grade and can sticker) on Ebay. The only difference is all the other coins were PCGS and this was a NGC (which I perfer).

Question: Do you think I was just in the right place at the right time (it apparently was on ebay since Nov) or does PCGS have a large undeserved premium price ; or maybe people don't use ebay and clientele is different on HA / GC.

Thanx for input in advance  

PS: It seems there are more PCGS for sale than NGC for a lot of coins ? Thoughts 

[Coinbuf]

Without any photos it is impossible for anyone to provide you an intelligent reply.   But a few thoughts, first if the ebay coin will sticker at CAC (this is my take on your comment that the coin can sticker) why would the seller not already have the coin seen by CAC, why would the seller want to leave money on the table.   Secondly ebay is likely the biggest marketplace in the world for coins, that the coin has been sitting for months and is priced at a discounted price may be some serious red flags.   Again without any photos all anyone here can do is guess.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Thanx for input  

[Mr.Bill347]

You did good. HA and GC auctions are getting higher prices plus their commissions. I like the quality of your coin.

you just saved a bunch of money.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

I agree, buyers are may be migrating from Ebay (some possibly) and GC and HA have a lot more action than a year ago which increases prices ; meanwhile they may feel the aura of auctions versus the craziness of ebay at times.  

[Coinbuf]

Ok, so clearly there is already a CAC sticker on the coin, it would have been helpful if you had said that initially.   I can see several reasons why those PCGS coins would sell for more than the NGC coin.   The first PCGS coin shows a really nice frosty, creamy look that indicates the coin is undipped and original, those are very desirable aspects that many collectors look for.  Also, the second coin is toned, not a coin that would be called monster toned but toned coins often bring more at auction.   While I don't understand it or agree with it, it is true that in many cases a PCGS coin will sell for more simply because two people wanted the coin for a PCGS registry set.   And of course there is the auction fever that can influence the outcome of any auction which may, or may not, have played a part in the outcomes of the PCGS coins.

The NGC coin has some signs of an old dip, the light tobacco color that is somewhat splotchy as seen on the obv is possibly dip residue that was not rinsed off well and now beginning to show.   There is also some tone or slight disruptions visible on the bust area, neither of these two things are major issues, or cause for concern, just what I see when I look at the photos, and perhaps what others may have seen also.

In my opinion the two PCGS coins have better eye appeal and that is why they sold for more imo, however, the important thing is that you are happy with the coin you buy.   That really is the only good reason to buy any coin.

[Sandon]

   This thread epitomizes much of what I view as wrong with coin collecting today. Instead of collecting coins, one collects little paper tags with numbers on them!

    A 1952-D Washington-Carver half dollar per the NGC Price Guide lists $145 in MS 65 and $225 in MS 65+. (Q. David Bowers would call these the "optimal collecting grades".) The list price shoots up to $1,700 in MS 66 and $2,350 in MS 66+, simply because fewer specimens have been given these numbers, not because there is anything significantly different in the appearance of coins in these grades.  I see clear evidence of bag marks and other abrasions on the coin purchased by @LDH Coins & Memorabilia, which was evidently purchased without in-person inspection. There is nothing so unusually nice looking about it as to warrant such a high price. (The photos of the PCGS graded coins aren't clear enough to get a good impression of the surfaces.)  In my experience, there is often little difference between coins graded 65, 66, and even 66+, and the same coin when submitted multiple times can go up or down within this grade range. Why not settle for a nice, handpicked, MS 65 or 65+ that you find to your liking and have a lot of money left over to buy other coins?

  I would value a 1952-D Washington-Carver half dollar for its low, though still mostly existing mintage of 8,000, not for the difference of a point or two on that little paper tag.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Great feedback - thanx  

[EagleRJO]

I think @Sandonhit the nail right on the head with his comments! And I couldn't agree with him more about collecting coins and not paper tags.

[VKurtB]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:40 PM, EagleRJO said:

I think @Sandonhit the nail right on the head with his comments! And I couldn't agree with him more about collecting coins and not paper tags.

This discussion board has a disproportionate number of registry fans, and for that species (not my species) the little paper tags, and green ovals, are all that matters. It’s all about the registry points for them. To each his own, of course, but it holds zero appeal for me. I have to understand, though, that it does drive demand for the grading of coins that would otherwise never visit Sarasota. 

[Sandon]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:46 PM, VKurtB said:

This discussion board has a disproportionate number of registry fans, and for that species (not my species) the little paper tags, and green ovals, are all that matters. It’s all about the registry points for them.

    I have NGC Registry Sets primarily as a source of education for other collectors.  I post photos of the coins and educational comments and anecdotes about them.  Although I wasn't much interested in the point competition, I just won "Best in Category" awards for five different sets, including three early "mint sets", circulated early dimes and a New Orleans type set. Each of these sets includes circulated and/or details graded coins!  One can do well in numismatics without getting into the prevailing "condition rarity" insanity.

[EagleRJO]

Introducing competitive registry sets seems like quite a marketing play by the TPG big boys. On the flip side a great way to share and compare collections, and possibly sell entire sets. I would jump in on that if the custom sets were more user friendly, and I could share my raw coins.

[Hoghead515]

I like having mine in the registry to use it as a guide to collect by. Im not worried about competing or winning. I already know I cant afford to win. I just enjoy using the registry to display my coins also. I enjoy looking at all the others on display. So it dosent bother me much about what the paper tag in the holder says as much. Of course Id love to have very high graded coins, but Ive got some very nice lusterous coins in lower grades also Im happy with. Ive got a couple I know are undergraded but Im not gonna worry about resubmitting them to get a higher registry score or to make money off them. 

[JT2]

Well running that post Christmas sticker kit sale.  The do it at home stickering kit for you and your loved ones.  just send $19.95 and your preferred color sticker to me and i will get it right in the mail to you.....  All kidding aside.  Coins are what i collect.  Just because a coin has a sticker on it doesn't mean that it is better than one that doesn't and worth more.  A coin is only as valuable to you as what you're willing to pay for it.  I have never purchased a coin for more that n $50 that i haven't picked up flipped every which a way and then looked at it with a loop.   then i set it down and take a breath talk to the guy and then look at it again....  it takes a lot for me to pull the trigger on some of the coins i have purchased but the right coin is worth it and the wrong one will make you cringe..  Registry's are great but i will never put one together and or try for the highest stickered coin i can find..

[J P M]

You got a real good deal. I also think this coin looks better in a NGC holder it is a way busy coin in my opinion. This coin was my first graded commemorative. Like JT2, I do my best to shop around. I try to pick up graded coins for below the cost of the slab. I paid $40 for this piece which was a good deal . I should have done a bit more research on the Washington/Carver coin. I now know there are a bunch out there for the picking. I am always hunting for deals and only certain dates seam to retail high and the 1953 S is not one of them. As Sandon said some coins can be sharp in MS 65 this is a nice one that looks like a better coin but will never be worth a whole lot ...Lol

Edited January 21, 2023 by J P M

[VKurtB]

I have to be brutally honest here. I’ve never understood people who use the Registry system as merely a way to “organize their collecting”. You don’t need to open a Registry set to do that! There is the NGC Collectors Society that does all that, complete with pictures of your prized pieces, but has nothing to do with the Registry System. The Collectors Society maybe even has PRE-DATED the NGC Registry. Why not use the Collectors Society, if all you want is organization and photo albums, rather than a Registry? Sorry, I don’t get it. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:47 AM, VKurtB said:

I have to be brutally honest here. I’ve never understood people who use the Registry system as merely a way to “organize their collecting”. You don’t need to open a Registry set to do that! There is the NGC Collectors Society that does all that, complete with pictures of your prized pieces, but has nothing to do with the Registry System. The Collectors Society maybe even has PRE-DATED the NGC Registry. Why not use the Collectors Society, if all you want is organization and photo albums, rather than a Registry?

The Collectors Society is the foundation for each coin individually that are in my registry sets.  I use both.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I only use the registry to organize and share my collection with others.  The registry is nothing I ever plan on "winning".  As such, I have bought some lower grade coins that I thought were nearly as nice as their higher grade counterparts, but I also refuse to buy problem coins (graded or not).  To me, all problem coins should be avoided unless the deal is so good that I cannot possibly lose money, or the coin is so rare that the I am happy to have an example at all (even then - I do not think I would be happy with the coin, so I have continued to refuse problem examples).

The registry is also a safe way for me to enjoy my own collection, as many of my coins are locked away at the bank.   The collector's society is clunky and old.  I do not like that interface at all.  So, the registry is where I landed.  I specifically use the NGC registry, because I can load NGC and PCGS coins.

I would not say that using a registry makes me guilty of buying paper tags and stickers.  That said, most high quality and expensive coins do have paper tags and/or stickers associated with them in today's marketplace.  Copper can still be found raw and in good condition (through EAC), but most other higher-end material is very hard to find raw without problems.

@LDH Coins & Memorabilia I think you got a nice coin at a nice price.  As some others have said, I do think that the PCGS examples have some qualities in luster, color and originality that would drive a premium over your example.  However, I would have to say that your coin is a nice example that you can be proud of.  Congrats!

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Mr.Bill347]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:47 AM, VKurtB said:

I have to be brutally honest here. I’ve never understood people who use the Registry system as merely a way to “organize their collecting”. You don’t need to open a Registry set to do that! There is the NGC Collectors Society that does all that, complete with pictures of your prized pieces, but has nothing to do with the Registry System. The Collectors Society maybe even has PRE-DATED the NGC Registry. Why not use the Collectors Society, if all you want is organization and photo albums, rather than a Registry? Sorry, I don’t get it. 

VkurtB, I have tried multiple times to log my proof sets with pictures on the collectors society site, and not been able to do so. It is not very intuitive, and not much on-line help is available. If there is a secret to it, Id like to know.

 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Recently, I was considering chasing Registry rank a little, and as a sanity check for my gold type set, I wondered what would be involved with trying to replace two coins I own with much more desirable coins that currently can be found on the Internet.  What I learned was the effort and expense would be so difficult and cost prohibitive that the "normalcy" of my life would be "turned upside-down."

With everything considered, I'd have to risk bankrupting my future, hope for a successful crossover on one of the two coins, manage to get the two coins I currently own included in the "purchase negotiations," relearn how I had taken photos five years ago so that the new coin photos would be similar to my other Registry photos, and after doing all of this my Registry gold type set would change from an okay rank of 60 to merely another okay rank… rank 30.  A real eye-opener on "what not to do."

It's nice to "dream," but it's preferable to "leave well enough alone," and enjoy this hobby with "both feet planted firmly on the ground."

[Coinbuf]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:23 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

VkurtB, I have tried multiple times to log my proof sets with pictures on the collectors society site, and not been able to do so. It is not very intuitive, and not much on-line help is available. If there is a secret to it, Id like to know.

 

I am unclear what you mean by "to log my proof sets" you have to enter each coin into your inventory.   Once you have the coins entered in your inventory (remember any PCGS coins need to be verified by an NGC admin which can add a day or two) then you can begin to build sets, both custom and competitive.   As far as I know you cannot enter an entire proof set as a one line item, each certified coin must be entered separately.   If you are trying to enter an entire set in one entry that will not work and may explain the difficulties, you may have encountered.  So the steps to follow are:

1) Once logged in go to the control panel

2) Hover the mouse over "my collection", a drop down menu will appear, select add coin.   Add all the NGC or PCGS certified coins you have to enter, this is building your inventory.

3) Once you have finished entering your coins into your inventory, again in the control panel hover the mouse over "my collection" and select new competitive set or new custom set.  If you choose new competitive set you will be taken to the new registry system.   You will choose United States, and then scroll down to where proof sets start.   There are several options for proof sets, each option covers a group of years.  Select the tab that covers the year you wish to start a proof set and then the appropriate year.   once you choose the year the registry will display all the current sets for that particular year, and just above the list of sets on the left hand side you will see a link that says "Create a Set".   Click the link, and you will be prompted to enter some info like a set name, description, etc.    You then click Create Set and the set will be created, you can then select each coin yourself or use the autobuild function which will automatically select the coin with the highest points for each slot.

If you choose a custom set you will stay on the collectors society site, you will be prompted to select a category, set name, description etc... same as with a competitive set.  Click create set, here is where the two systems differ, for the custom set you have to enter each coin manually.   Slots cannot be filled with the select tool like the new system and there is no autobuild.

Any competitive set can also be created using the new registry system only, some members (like myself) prefer to use the old system when entering inventory as it has some features that are not available on the new system.   Custom sets can only be done on the old collectors society system.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Coinbuf

[VKurtB]

On 1/18/2023 at 5:42 PM, Coinbuf said:

I am unclear what you mean by "to log my proof sets" you have to enter each coin into your inventory.   Once you have the coins entered in your inventory (remember any PCGS coins need to be verified by an NGC admin which can add a day or two) then you can begin to build sets, both custom and competitive.   As far as I know you cannot enter an entire proof set as a one line item, each certified coin must be entered separately.   If you are trying to enter an entire set in one entry that will not work and may explain the difficulties, you may have encountered.  So the steps to follow are:

1) Once logged in go to the control panel

2) Hover the mouse over "my collection", a drop down menu will appear, select add coin.   Add all the NGC or PCGS certified coins you have to enter, this is building your inventory.

3) Once you have finished entering your coins into your inventory, again in the control panel hover the mouse over "my collection" and select new competitive set or new custom set.  If you choose new competitive set you will be taken to the new registry system.   You will choose United States, and then scroll down to where proof sets start.   There are several options for proof sets, each option covers a group of years.  Select the tab that covers the year you wish to start a proof set and then the appropriate year.   once you choose the year the registry will display all the current sets for that particular year, and just above the list of sets on the left hand side you will see a link that says "Create a Set".   Click the link, and you will be prompted to enter some info like a set name, description, etc.    You then click Create Set and the set will be created, you can then select each coin yourself or use the autobuild function which will automatically select the coin with the highest points for each slot.

If you choose a custom set you will stay on the collectors society site, you will be prompted to select a category, set name, description etc... same as with a competitive set.  Click create set, here is where the two systems differ, for the custom set you have to enter each coin manually.   Slots cannot be filled with the select tool like the new system and there is no autobuild.

Any competitive set can also be created using the new registry system only, some members (like myself) prefer to use the old system when entering inventory as it has some features that are not available on the new system.   Custom sets can only be done on the old collectors society system.

All this ^^^ PLUS the Collectors Society interface allows you to enter into it [gasp!] RAW COINS!!!!! Heaven forfend! Raw coins?!?!

[VKurtB]

On 1/18/2023 at 1:23 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

VkurtB, I have tried multiple times to log my proof sets with pictures on the collectors society site, and not been able to do so. It is not very intuitive, and not much on-line help is available. If there is a secret to it, Id like to know.

 

Coins, not sets. 

[VKurtB]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:41 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

but most other higher-end material is very hard to find raw without problems.

I have not found this to be the case in my travels. Yes, there’s some crud out there, but scads and scads of good raw material too. That’s why I wave off dealers when they ask what I’m looking for. I’ll know it when I see it, thank you very much. Most of their slabbed material is priced at a multiple of my buying price. I haven’t had a raw submission body bagged yet. One was flagged for conservation and became a CAMEO. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by VKurtB