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Can an ms66 have a deep scratch or ding on Lincolns bust if it doesn't detract from the over all naked eye appeal?
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Started by pigeonman333rd,

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Coinbuf

Coinbuf

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First nobody can with any level of competence answer your question, without any photos how are we supposed to know what a "ding" represents to you.   What you call a ding could be the grand canyon or something so insignificant that it requires an electron microscope to see.    And second MS66 is not a perfect grade, a few minor bag marks are not unusual at this grade level.   It is also not unusual to see some planchet marks that may not have been fully struck out at the time of coining.   These are often seen as small chicken scratch marks on the area of the shoulder of the bust, these marks are found even on many MS67 graded examples.

If you don't like the coin return it and stop buying unless you can see the coin in hand.

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pigeonman333rd

pigeonman333rd

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I'm not going to return a cheap coin Good to know that MS 66 is not a high grade coin it makes me feel better about some of my unc coins I worried about not being gradable due to hair line scratches only visible under the coin camera. I don't want to show the coin because couldn't NGC downgrade the coin or make the certification invalid due to the ding I mean it is a major dent in the chin? I don't have a good camera right now. I feel a deals a deal you know you get what you give! Thank you for your help! NGC must have seen it the way I did it doesn't detract from the eye clean appearance of the coin because the dent is on the bust so it's not visible to the naked eye except under magnification. I however would have downgraded it to genuine unc details with dent written on the case. Or unc details genuine not gradable.  

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The Neophyte Numismatist

The Neophyte Numismatist

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A few things... MS66 is a "high grade" but it is not "perfect".  You can still see some bag marks and slight imperfections in MS66.  The "hairline" marks on your other UNC coins could 100% make your coin not gradable.  There is a big difference between a bag mark and hairlines from a coin that has been mechanically cleaned or wiped.  Without seeing coins, it is impossible to give any interpretation.

If your coin is in a holder, there is ZERO chance that someone from NGC would see your coin on this forum and downgrade the coin.  The grade has been finalized, and the grade is the grade (unless you crack it or otherwise resubmit).  All of the graders are using magnification, so the mark was likely spotted (if it is as dramatic as you say).  Again, without seeing the coin, we are pretty useless in helping you.

If the coin is not the same in hand, and you are not happy - return the coin.  "Cheap" or not, you don't want to keep a graded example that you are unhappy with.  You will regret the coin every time you look at it.

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pigeonman333rd

pigeonman333rd

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On 1/10/2023 at 5:52 PM, pigeonman333rd said:

Best pictures I could take with my phone my camera needs an sd card.

20230110_092340.jpg

20230110_092348.jpg

Oh come on guys this coin makes Lincoln look like he has a butt chin that scratch is so deep I do wonder if a grading company would grade some of my dinged shiny field coins high now. I have a few that I cherish for their reflective fields! My guess is with age say 40 years this coin will patina green at the tip of the beard and he will have a Go T. A little corrosion and I would love this coin! I know going to the retailer insures you get what you want and for 150% above retail which is fair we are not alone buying coins from the shops but rarely do you spot a certified coin. To get certified coins you got to deal with the Pawn shops and they go 500% above retail but give 50% blue book value for goods they buy like .2 cents a piece for all wheat cents no matter the mintage or rarity. Customer service is what I like and I get that with the sellers I save online however the guys that label the sale with my full name and for you gets old! I deselect those sellers from my favorite sellers list but I never complain or give bad reviews.to them It would be nice if they just messaged me and besides I have never made it in time to buy their deal I always get beat to the punch. Can anybody see the deep ding or scratch?   

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JT2

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Well not sure if this post is meant to get a rise out of some of the guys or not.  however the grading of Mint State Lincoln's can be challenging.  You have to look at die states and wear,  Strike quality, luster, and as well as the amount of contact marks from being placed in bins and bags.  Every Lincoln graded MS 66 is different from the next.  just because it says MS 66 on it doesn't mean that you will like it over the next.  What it does mean as that you will need to LOOK at the coin and decide for  yourself.  the qualifications for 66 are that it should not show any traces of wear except for some small blemishes .  i.e. your " BUTT CHIN" a few minor nicks or contact marks however still have full mint luster with natural color.

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J P M

J P M

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On 1/11/2023 at 7:53 AM, pigeonman333rd said:

A  pigeonman makes a deal and he suffers the consequences if he's wrong!

Well if you got it from a pawn shop chances are you would not be able to take it back without paying them. So the coin is what it is a good looking MS 66

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pigeonman333rd

pigeonman333rd

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On 1/11/2023 at 4:28 AM, JT2 said:

Well not sure if this post is meant to get a rise out of some of the guys or not.  however the grading of Mint State Lincoln's can be challenging.  You have to look at die states and wear,  Strike quality, luster, and as well as the amount of contact marks from being placed in bins and bags.  Every Lincoln graded MS 66 is different from the next.  just because it says MS 66 on it doesn't mean that you will like it over the next.  What it does mean as that you will need to LOOK at the coin and decide for  yourself.  the qualifications for 66 are that it should not show any traces of wear except for some small blemishes .  i.e. your " BUTT CHIN" a few minor nicks or contact marks however still have full mint luster with natural color.

I here that I don"t want to get a rise out of anyone I just got what I was asking for an explanation. I don't fear keeping any coin that's what coin hoarding is all about i just wanted the high mintage coin in the best quality I can afford and I got that. Thank you for all your help I might aim higher next time as long as the price is right! I got to get all the key dates like that to have a hoard I can be proud of within reason right now I make very little money tomorrow maybe not so.

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pigeonman333rd

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On 1/11/2023 at 5:24 AM, pigeonman333rd said:

I here that I don"t want to get a rise out of anyone I just got what I was asking for an explanation. I don't fear keeping any coin that's what coin hoarding is all about i just wanted the high mintage coin in the best quality I can afford and I got that. Thank you for all your help I might aim higher next time as long as the price is right! I got to get all the key dates like that to have a hoard I can be proud of within reason right now I make very little money tomorrow maybe not so.

I like my mint state 64 1909 vdb better but looking at the video of the 1944 I didn't think so. I thought that coin had wear but I still like it better maybe its all nostalgia!

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Sandon

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   The depression in the chin may have been in the planchet from which the coin was struck, although it's hard to tell from either pigeonman's or NGC's photos.  The higher relief areas in the design of the coin such as this part of the chin receive less pressure from the dies, so planchet defects are still visible on the struck coin.

   The "66" grade was likely the result of the coin's original bright color, lack of spots, and full strike.  In my opinion many coins graded "65" and "66" aren't true "gems". As others have stated, you have to look at coins before buying them and base your purchases on your own taste, not on the number on a little paper tag.  

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The Neophyte Numismatist

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Not to sound like a broken record... but.... I maintain that you would be happier if you slowed-down a little, and buy with a deliberate purpose.  Scrutinize each coin and do your homework on the historical wholesales/retail costs and current populations.  Understand what is truly a "deal" and what is being discounted due to problems, or just overpriced in general.

In reading your posts, it feels like your primary driver in your decision making is price.  Price is always a top-of-mind consideration, but without doing the proper homework upfront, it is impossible to determine overvalued vs undervalued coins.  If you can easily buy the coin with the money in your wallet...that does not make a coin "cheap" for what it is.  Knowing the historical prices for that coin in that grade, knowing the typical buy/sell spread on a coin will help you to determine value.  Likewise, knowing how one MS66 compares to another will help you to determine value.

I am not suggesting that you have to spend big bucks on a coin to be happy.  I am merely suggesting that you take your time to really understand what you are buying, the relative value of what you are buying, and how what you are buying compares to comparable coins within your given budget.  I would give this advice to a collector with a $20 budget or a $20,000 budget.

Buying coins quickly and impulsively will lead to mistakes (from a resale value perspective), and this is why the adage is "buy what you really like."  If you only buy coins you love, it will not matter as much if the coin is $38 or $32... you will love the coin.  Buying coins with the idea of reselling them, is a risky endeavor.  This risk is compounded when a collector buys exclusively on price.

I am not trying to push anyone into a one-size-fits-all collecting strategy, but trying to help you to avoid some costly mistakes and help you get the most out of the hobby. 

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pigeonman333rd

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On 1/11/2023 at 8:27 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Not to sound like a broken record... but.... I maintain that you would be happier if you slowed-down a little, and buy with a deliberate purpose.  Scrutinize each coin and do your homework on the historical wholesales/retail costs and current populations.  Understand what is truly a "deal" and what is being discounted due to problems, or just overpriced in general.

In reading your posts, it feels like your primary driver in your decision making is price.  Price is always a top-of-mind consideration, but without doing the proper homework upfront, it is impossible to determine overvalued vs undervalued coins.  If you can easily buy the coin with the money in your wallet...that does not make a coin "cheap" for what it is.  Knowing the historical prices for that coin in that grade, knowing the typical buy/sell spread on a coin will help you to determine value.  Likewise, knowing how one MS66 compares to another will help you to determine value.

I am not suggesting that you have to spend big bucks on a coin to be happy.  I am merely suggesting that you take your time to really understand what you are buying, the relative value of what you are buying, and how what you are buying compares to comparable coins within your given budget.  I would give this advice to a collector with a $20 budget or a $20,000 budget.

Buying coins quickly and impulsively will lead to mistakes (from a resale value perspective), and this is why the adage is "buy what you really like."  If you only buy coins you love, it will not matter as much if the coin is $38 or $32... you will love the coin.  Buying coins with the idea of reselling them, is a risky endeavor.  This risk is compounded when a collector buys exclusively on price.

I am not trying to push anyone into a one-size-fits-all collecting strategy, but trying to help you to avoid some costly mistakes and help you get the most out of the hobby. 

I still like the coin i wanted Ms 66 for comparison to my Ms 64 without paying a lot that's why I picked the highest mintage.Thanks for your opinion it is always appreciated.I love my 1908-s Indian head and keep it with my fake 1856 flying eagle brass cent they are both nice in my opinion. 

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J P M

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On 1/11/2023 at 11:27 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Not to sound like a broken record... but.... I maintain that you would be happier if you slowed-down a little, and buy with a deliberate purpose.  Scrutinize each coin and do your homework on the historical wholesales/retail costs and current populations.  Understand what is truly a "deal" and what is being discounted due to problems, or just overpriced in general.

In reading your posts, it feels like your primary driver in your decision making is price.  Price is always a top-of-mind consideration, but without doing the proper homework upfront, it is impossible to determine overvalued vs undervalued coins.  If you can easily buy the coin with the money in your wallet...that does not make a coin "cheap" for what it is.  Knowing the historical prices for that coin in that grade, knowing the typical buy/sell spread on a coin will help you to determine value.  Likewise, knowing how one MS66 compares to another will help you to determine value.

I am not suggesting that you have to spend big bucks on a coin to be happy.  I am merely suggesting that you take your time to really understand what you are buying, the relative value of what you are buying, and how what you are buying compares to comparable coins within your given budget.  I would give this advice to a collector with a $20 budget or a $20,000 budget.

Buying coins quickly and impulsively will lead to mistakes (from a resale value perspective), and this is why the adage is "buy what you really like."  If you only buy coins you love, it will not matter as much if the coin is $38 or $32... you will love the coin.  Buying coins with the idea of reselling them, is a risky endeavor.  This risk is compounded when a collector buys exclusively on price.

I am not trying to push anyone into a one-size-fits-all collecting strategy, but trying to help you to avoid some costly mistakes and help you get the most out of the hobby. 

I agree with Neo, Like most of us, I try to set standards for my coin purchases. Trying to get the best grade for the best price is key. I will spend a bit more than my 30% rule or settle for a lower grade if my research says it is a hard coin to find. If it is a graded common coin for under $5 always. And Yes, They can be found in MS 64,65 and 66. I also have some coins that I cant believe they were even sent in for grading... and very many I just pass on.  Time is on your side if you go slow and look for that just right coin you will be, A happy pigeonman.

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Hoghead515

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Ive noticed while putting together my set of silver Washington quarters not all ms 66 coins are created equal. I bought some problem ms66 quarters Im not happy with and Ive bought a few that are true gems graded at ms66. I learned to slow down and have patience. To make sure I really like the coin before I buy it. Ive made the mistake myself of hurrying up and buying coins I now regret. 

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pigeonman333rd

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On 1/11/2023 at 10:27 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive noticed while putting together my set of silver Washington quarters not all ms 66 coins are created equal. I bought some problem ms66 quarters Im not happy with and Ive bought a few that are true gems graded at ms66. I learned to slow down and have patience. To make sure I really like the coin before I buy it. Ive made the mistake myself of hurrying up and buying coins I now regret. 

Well yes I think we all make mistakes but I think with a little time I will grow fond of its full luster. It is a great tool to guess the grade of some of those 1982's. Oh and by the way I said I had 4000 copper satins I was wrong closer to 1000 I new I got 16 rolls plus 8 packs of what I thought were 25 packs of 8 coins but it was 8 packs of 10 coins and 8 of the 16 rolls were different dates not satins but I have no idea where they are or if they are some of the coins in one of my boxes. I now have 700 something copper satin cents. I just guessed It was 4000 but I was wrong sorry. I have 400 in the book and 200 in packs plus two more packs some where man I got to get organized I have coins all over the place I brought my coin chest from the garage in and went all if it's F12 or better in the teens it gets a case then I thought if it has a g obverse but full wheat stalks I should case those to and Ive got like 100 cases left out of 500 so I got to slow it down but with two jobs coins are my play time you know. The thing that's been eating at me is my 1930's coins are like f12-extra fine but they won't be forever if I don't get them into cases soon. I'm working on stopping my buying and conserving what I got because the garage is no place for coins some of these rolls got spots thanks to the garage. Do you still use your ms66's to figure out Washington quarters grade when trying to decipher ms65 to ms66. When I have trouble deciphering past ms 64 using the red book I divert to using the Sheldon scale print off from wikipedia. I also have trouble deciphering ef40 from au55 or au55 from ms60 but when I think ms60 I think red. I do believe that the best way to buy a coin is when it's in your hand. What I love about this coin is that if my 1982 bronze small dates don't have the luster of the 1944 ms66 I wont send it in for grading.   

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Hoghead515

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On 1/12/2023 at 3:07 AM, pigeonman333rd said:

Well yes I think we all make mistakes but I think with a little time I will grow fond of its full luster. It is a great tool to guess the grade of some of those 1982's. Oh and by the way I said I had 4000 copper satins I was wrong closer to 1000 I new I got 16 rolls plus 8 packs of what I thought were 25 packs of 8 coins but it was 8 packs of 10 coins and 8 of the 16 rolls were different dates not satins but I have no idea where they are or if they are some of the coins in one of my boxes. I now have 700 something copper satin cents. I just guessed It was 4000 but I was wrong sorry. I have 400 in the book and 200 in packs plus two more packs some where man I got to get organized I have coins all over the place I brought my coin chest from the garage in and went all if it's F12 or better in the teens it gets a case then I thought if it has a g obverse but full wheat stalks I should case those to and Ive got like 100 cases left out of 500 so I got to slow it down but with two jobs coins are my play time you know. The thing that's been eating at me is my 1930's coins are like f12-extra fine but they won't be forever if I don't get them into cases soon. I'm working on stopping my buying and conserving what I got because the garage is no place for coins some of these rolls got spots thanks to the garage. Do you still use your ms66's to figure out Washington quarters grade when trying to decipher ms65 to ms66. When I have trouble deciphering past ms 64 using the red book I divert to using the Sheldon scale print off from wikipedia. I also have trouble deciphering ef40 from au55 or au55 from ms60 but when I think ms60 I think red. I do believe that the best way to buy a coin is when it's in your hand. What I love about this coin is that if my 1982 bronze small dates don't have the luster of the 1944 ms66 I wont send it in for grading.   

If I got one in hand I can guess the grade sometimes. I can get pretty close most the time. Im planning on buying on of the ANA grading guide books and try to learn to grade. I tend to stay on the more conservative side most of the time and end up undergrading. Ive took coins at pawn shops and covered the labels and tried to guess. Sometimes I hit em but most the time Im a grade lower. Im bad about just grading by the bad spots on the coin and not factoring in luster and good strikes. 

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pigeonman333rd

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Good strike is the hardest part not having one in hand but that's why I got my matte proof cent. I tend to down grade when near f12 and reverse wheat stalks slightly blend i go vg even if the obverse looks real nice but im a reverse of the wheat cent critic I like full wheat stalks on a wheat penny and full liberty on an Indian head. Ive never graded Washington quarters I just try to get silver ones five for 23.45 price of silver and sometimes cheaper if they are faint or worn

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