Reasonable Price for Cleaned coin 0

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

I am looking for one coin to finish set. I really can't afford a MS 60-61 and the AU 58s are overpriced. What would an acceptable price be for a UNC. cleaned coin -- 50% to 75% of grey sheet / blue book, past sales or price guide ? I am justifying in my mind that before grading companies - it was common practice to clean coins LOL  

PS: Please remember patience is not my strong suit in my OCD mind LOL  

[EagleRJO]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:44 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

I am looking for one coin to finish set. I really can't afford a MS 60-61 and the AU 58s are overpriced. What would an acceptable price be for a UNC. cleaned coin -- 50% to 75% of grey sheet / blue book, past sales or price guide ? I am justifying in my mind that before grading companies - it was common practice to clean coins LOL   

I have been struggling with similar issues working on a complete circulation set of Morgan silver dollars, to the point where I was considering a whizzed 1893-S due to the cost of that coin, as well as some impaired early date CC marks.

For lightly cleaned coins, I have heard of either dropping one grade or using 2/3 to 3/4 FMV.  However, in the end I decided to just drop one or two grades and get unimpaired coins.

Edited December 26, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   I am aware of no rule for how to value coins that have been "cleaned", whether abrasively, chemically or both. Such pieces vary in appearance from absolutely hideous to rather attractive, the evaluation of appearance being to some extent a matter of taste. In my opinion, many pieces that have been described as "cleaned" by the grading services due to light hairlines, slight glossiness, or other minor issues are actually desirable, especially because they trade at a discount due to their being shunned by some collectors and "investors".  I would personally be satisfied with a 30% discount from retail list price for such a coin.

  You should evaluate any coin that you are offered in light of your own experience and taste. It all boils down to whether you like the coin and whether you are willing to pay the asking price.

   See my custom registry set "Characteristics of Cleaned Coins" at Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com) for specimens of "cleaned" coins in my collection.  The 1834 and 1874 dimes, 1818 and 1819/8 half dollars, and 1849 silver dollar are examples of pieces that I find attractive notwithstanding having been described as "cleaned".

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sandon

[GoldFinger1969]

I guess it would depend on how the cleaned coin would grade if it hadn't been cleaned...the pricing for a coin 1 grade higher and/or lower....and then an appropriate discount.

I think the discount on the NUMISMATIC (not bullion) premium for Morgans and Saints that I've seen is usually 40-60%.  So a $12,000 Saint selling for $6,000 give-or-take.

[JKK]

My general rule of thumb is that a light cleaning docks one grade in value, and a nasty cleaning docks it two.

[Coinbuf]

The reasonable price is whatever the seller can sucker the buyer into paying when buying problem coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/26/2022 at 6:36 PM, JKK said:

My general rule of thumb is that a light cleaning docks one grade in value, and a nasty cleaning docks it two.

I think it would also matter if the coin had bullion AND numismatic value, right JKK ?

[EagleRJO]

On 12/26/2022 at 6:36 PM, JKK said:

My general rule of thumb is that a light cleaning docks one grade in value, and a nasty cleaning docks it two.

When looking at options for my Morgan set I was not considering any harshly cleaned or nasty coins, but I was considering some lightly cleaned coins.  The coins I purchase are almost exclusively raw coins, so I expect that the coins have been cleaned at some point in the past even without the obvious indicators.

I have heard rumors that like 95% of the older silver dollars have been cleaned, so the key for me is how the coin presents (e.g. are there obvious scratches or hairlines from a cleaning, and for AU coins how much luster is remaining).  For my favorite BU coins, I expect luster consistent with brilliant, choice or gem conditions, which eliminates many coins with a light cleaning.  For circulated VF or XF coins luster isn't that important to me.

Quote

PS: Please remember patience is not my strong suit in my OCD mind LOL

Bottom line is I would buy an AU graded coin verses an UNC - Details problem coin, or an XF graded coin verses an AU - Details, (depending on the target price points) and there would be no waiting to save up which you seem to be adverse to.

Edited December 28, 2022 by EagleRJO

[JKK]

On 12/26/2022 at 4:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think it would also matter if the coin had bullion AND numismatic value, right JKK ?

Absolutely not! The bullion value is TOTALLY DESTROYED by all cleaning!

Jesus Christ on a crutch.

[JKK]

On 12/26/2022 at 4:57 PM, EagleRJO said:

Bottom line is I would buy an AU graded coin verses an UNC - Details problem coin, or an XF graded coin verses an AU - Details, (depending on the target price points) and there would be no waiting to save up which you seem to be adverse to.

Where did I say I was adverse to waiting to save up, or anything about saving up? I do not understand what you're addressing, but I think it has to do with someone else's commentary.

Edited December 27, 2022 by JKK

[EagleRJO]

On 12/27/2022 at 2:20 AM, JKK said:

Where did I say I was adverse to waiting to save up, or anything about saving up? I do not understand what you're addressing, but I think it has to do with someone else's commentary.

That was addressing the OP's comments who stated ...  "PS: Please remember patience is not my strong suit in my OCD mind LOL".  The OP was previously advised by some that it's better to save up and put some more money into problem free coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:53 AM, EagleRJO said:

That was addressing the OP's comments who stated ...  "PS: Please remember patience is not my strong suit in my OCD mind LOL".  The OP was previously advised by some that it's better to save up and put some more money into problem free coins.

I actually see some MCMVII HR's Details getting nice action compared to problem-free coins asking too much.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

My philosophy is - If I see the problem on the bourse floor, it will always bother me at home.  So, I leave the holes empty, or try to find pleasing examples in lower grades.  

Note:  When I say "problems", this does not necessarily mean that the coins are "details".  There are many "problem coins" in straight-graded TPG holders when it comes to US Half Cents (coins with porosity, recolored, etc.)

Edited December 27, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[EagleRJO]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I actually see some MCMVII HR's Details getting nice action compared to problem-free coins asking too much

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/27/2022 at 1:52 PM, EagleRJO said:

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

We're talking cleaned coins, right ?  The Details Saint coins have been cleaned and it's easy to see how much of the numismatic premium has been eliminated since you know the bullion value.

Granted, the OP deals with a different coin but same kind of analysis applied to other coins that have been cleaned and/or are Details with no grade.

Raw coin that you are certain has been cleaned probably a bigger discount.

Edited December 27, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

We are not talking about cleaned Saints.  From past discussions with LDH I believe we are talking about Morgans or similarly Peace dollars.  I think the different type of coin series with vastly and distinctly different coin materials such as gold vs silver should be addressed separately.

Edited December 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

No specific series mentioned in the original post.  I thought we were talking about the philosophy of buying problem coins to fill tough holes... sorry if I missed a queue back there.

[EagleRJO]

From recent prior posts LDH is working on Morgan and Peace dollar sets which he was almost finished with not long ago, where we were discussing the possibility of being more patient and saving up for the unimpaired coins which LDH tied into this thread.  Perhaps @LDH Coins & Memorabiliacan clarify that for you.

Edited December 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Sorry for the confusion. Eagle RJO is correct,  I was working on Morgan but I was talking about key date in Peace set ( although I never mentioned it in this series of post). I didn't say but I can now  its the 1934-S. My original question was a general question, not a particular series or coin. I should have mentioned it was a key date though. Thanx for all the input. 

PS: Don't judge me but I have a AU-55 already but I want a uncirculated set LOL -- Be gentle with responses  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/27/2022 at 2:38 PM, EagleRJO said:

We are not talking about cleaned Saints.  From past discussions with LDH I believe we are talking about Morgans.  Each series of coins should be addressed separately.

I think others have used as a guide 50% of AU Morgan price for a cleaned/details coin that otherwise would be high-AU or even low-MS.

So....$500 coin if not cleaned, $250 cleaned.  That's what vets have posted in past years for Morgans (and other silver coins).

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Sorry for the confusion. Eagle RJO is correct,  I was working on Morgan but I was talking about key date in Peace set ( although I never mentioned it in this series of post). I didn't say but I can now  its the 1934-S. My original question was a general question, not a particular series or coin. I should have mentioned it was a key date though. Thanx for all the input.  PS: Don't judge me but I have a AU-55 already but I want a uncirculated set LOL -- Be gentle with responses  

No problem....I think my general rule of thumb is probably in the ballpark, but I'll defer to a Peace (or Morgan) dollar expert.   I do collect Morgans but don't have as much pricing knowledge there as with Saints and others.  I do believe the general principle on cleaned coins though applies to Morgans, Peace Dollars, etc.

It will certainly depend on the coin, the value if it wasn't cleaned/details graded, and the scarcity.  A Morgan with next-to-nothing in numismatic value (90% of the value being the silver) won't be hurt too much if it was cleaned.  One of those Carson City rarities in a high-grade (if not for the cleaning) will suffer alot price-wise.

I would guess (?) the same principle would apply to Peace Dollars but again, I'll let an expert chime in. 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

I have been watching about a dozen Morgans very closely on GC, HA and eBay and the TPG labeled cleaned ones have been going for 2/3 to 3/4 of FMV.  50% might be a good target, but they just are not going for that lately.

I would go to the Great Collections site and look up the going price for an UNC Details of the coin you are looking for.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:40 PM, EagleRJO said:

I have been watching about a dozen Morgans very closely on GC, HA and eBay and the TPG labeled cleaned ones have been going for 2/3 to 3/4 of FMV.  50% might be a good target, but they just are not going for that lately. 

Those are actual SALES, Eagle, not asking prices ?

Interesting.....I'll have to check some of them out.  That's higher than I would have thought. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

Yes, actual sales for a bunch of coins where I was looking at impaired ones due to the cost.  Its about 2/3 to 3/4 FMV.  You can go to the GC site and check it out yourself very easily as they have archived sales easily accessible from the home page search.

[J P M]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:46 PM, EagleRJO said:

Yes, actual sales for a bunch of coins where I was looking at impaired ones due to the cost.  Its about 2/3 to 3/4 FMV.  You can go to the GC site and check it out yourself very easily as they have archived sales easily accessible from the home page search.

I used to get my average MS  Morgan's for 30 to 50% of retail but in the last year or so it has been a lot harder to find them at that price. Now if you can get one from 60 to 80% you are doing real good.

[EagleRJO]

Wow, those were some great discounted purchases. Where did you get coins at such a discount?

Over the past several months I have purchased about a dozen or so Morgans in that 60% to 80% discount range, and a couple closer to FMV, mostly at Great Collections.  Then I hit the 1890's and for those more expensive coins, as well as a few early date CC coins, it seems like people are holding on for prices that were at the peak earlier this year.

Just have to wait it out, because prices are still coming down.

Edited December 28, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 12/28/2022 at 10:03 AM, EagleRJO said:

Wow, you got lucky with some at such a great discount on some.  Where did you get them?

Over the past several months I have purchased about a dozen or so Morgans in that 60% to 80% discount range, and a couple closer to FMV, mostly at Great Collections.  Then I hit the 1890's and for those more expensive coins it seems like people are holding on for prices that were at the peak earlier this year.

I got a few through some local dealers but the rest at GC. I just had to be patient and search a lot then be in the right place at the right time. And yes still looking for the 90's

[EagleRJO]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:48 AM, J P M said:

I just had to be patient and search a lot then be in the right place at the right time. And yes still looking for the 90's

I'm finding being patient is really paying off, and of course the right place at the right time.  However, I think LDH is looking for something right away, so I don't think the discount numbers for shopping around verses FMV would really apply.

On 12/27/2022 at 7:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

I was working on Morgan but I was talking about key date in Peace set  ... the 1934-S.

For the Morgan I think the 2/3 to 3/4 FMV discussed above for a cleaned coin would be reasonable.  For the key date Peace dollar you may find variable discounted numbers, but the potential for a greater impaired discount is there.

On 12/27/2022 at 7:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

PS: Don't judge me but I have a AU-55 already but I want a uncirculated set LOL -- Be gentle with responses  

Looks like you are on the way to a complete set with the AU-55 1934-S, and if you want to upgrade that to Uncirculated that can be done over time considering whatever discount you can get and selling the AU-55, but I would upgrade that to an unimpaired MS-60.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Well the suspense is over-- I didn't win the 1934-S ; I was out bid by only 100 hundred bucks but I did have discipline / patience because I wasn't going over 50% of book with buyer's premium   Thanx for all input - I really got a lot of good insight  

[EagleRJO]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:05 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Well the suspense is over-- I didn't win the 1934-S ; I was out bid by only 100 hundred bucks but I did have discipline / patience because I wasn't going over 50% of book with buyer's premium   Thanx for all input - I really got a lot of good insight  

I assume that was bidding for the Unc - Details 1934-S you were talking about.  Keep in mind that the person who won the bid may have been willing to go much higher, and you can get sucked into that battle, with just one more bid increment repeatedly, and possibly pay much more than intended.

There will be more, which is what I keep telling myself every time the bids go over my target numbers for about a half dozen to a dozen coins every week, over and over.  I sometimes feel like its "Groundhog Day" with the bidding just being short.  50% is probably a little too aggressive, but may be worth a shot considering its a common key date.  Good luck with the others that come up.