NGC asked me to pay extra for conversation then graded the coin as “cleaned” 0

[MatthewDM11]

NGC did me really dirty

I sent in a submission to NGC and a few weeks later I got an email that read in part:

This email is to inform you that there are one or more coins on the NGC submission listed above that have been recommended for NCS conservation by NGC's graders.

Please review the attachment for detailed information on the coins that have been recommended for conservation. If grades are not provided, conservation is required for the coin(s) to be encapsulated, otherwise the coin(s) will be returned raw (not encapsulated) and grading fees will still apply.

I responded with the email telling them to go ahead with the conservation and charge my card on file. I just got the coin back. They graded it as UNC Details - Cleaned. I just got off the phone with them, it was not a mistake and they are not willing to refund me for the conservation fee. I am really pissed off about this and canceled my membership. I am relatively new to all this, am I out of line here? Does this kind of shenanigans happen often and is accepted by the community?

Edited November 18, 2022 by MatthewDM11

[Mr.Bill347]

Wow that seems like total BS. If it needed conservation, was that just for the extra money?

[MatthewDM11]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:12 AM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Wow that seems like total BS. If it needed conservation, was that just for the extra money?

Yeah… I don’t know why they would require me to pay more to have the coin graded then stick me with an UNC Details grade… The only thing I can think of is NGC arguing that they didn’t know it was cleaned until they “conserved it” but that doesn’t make sense. The coin was not grimy or dirty in any way… I wouldn’t send it a dirty coin expecting them to grade it. There is no reason they wouldn’t have been able to make that determination prior to charging me for conservation.

[EagleRJO]

I believe this also happened to @Sandon

[MatthewDM11]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:29 AM, EagleRJO said:

I believe this also happened to @Sandon

Well, at least I am not alone 

[EagleRJO]

I think the gist of it is that NGC will try their best to conserve/restore a coin, but there are no guarantees it will be completely effective. I don't know about NGC, but I can't seem to find my crystal ball either. 😜 

[MatthewDM11]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:36 AM, EagleRJO said:

I think the gist of it is that NGC will try their best to conserve/restore a coin, but there are no guarantees it will be completely effective. I don't know about NGC, but I can't seem to find my crystal ball either. 😜 

I wish I took a before picture. The coin was not dirty or grimy or anything like that… the whole thing is so bizarre to me.

[EagleRJO]

Sometimes there are issues that are not readily apparent to a layperson or visible with just pictures.

I know it really sucks, knocks the value down somewhat and it's kind of like getting the booby prize, but at least it's verified as genuine and uncirculated, 😉

Edited November 17, 2022 by EagleRJO

[MatthewDM11]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:42 AM, EagleRJO said:

Sometimes there are issues that are not readily apparent to a layperson or visible with just pictures.

I know it really sucks and knocks the value down somewhat, but at least it's verified as genuine and uncirculated, but that's kind of like getting the booby prize. 😉

Hahaha very true

[gmarguli]

Did they provide a grade before conservation? If not, it could be they removed PVC which prevented it from grading in the first place. 

[Sandon]

   The same thing happened to me earlier this year with a 1913 variety one Buffalo nickel (as @EagleRJO mentioned while I was writing this).  I knew that a coin that NCS has "conserved" may receive a "details" grade but decided to take the risk. (I already realized there was a risk of this particular coin being returned "details" graded.)  I'm not likely to do it again.

   I've collected and studied coins and their grading standards for over 50 years and, except for sending a few coins to ANACS decades ago, only began submitting some of my (mostly higher value) pieces for grading this year.  You really have to be familiar with grading and the habits of the grading service you've chosen regarding what constitutes an impairment if you want to be successful.  I can see hairlines from a "cleaning" on the coin in your photo, which I doubt were put there by NCS.  The coin probably also had contamination from a PVC flip, which can just look like a slight haze or small spot. In my case I've had more coins that came back with higher grades than I anticipated than lower ones, such as the 1909-S Indian cent I just submitted purchased as a "Fine" in 1989 and which I thought would grade VF 25 or so by today's standards, but which came back from NGC graded XF 40!

    Even major dealers who are experienced in grading submissions get some pieces back "details" graded, as Jeff Garrett (former ANA president and prominent dealer) discusses in his recent article for NGC, which you can find at Jeff Garrett: The Art of Rare Coin Submissions | NGC (ngccoin.com) (right click for menu to open).   If you've only been a collector for a fairly brief time, you may wish to refrain from submitting uncertified coins until you've become more experienced and knowledgeable about the nuances involved.

[MatthewDM11]

@Sandon Thanks for your input. It is very helpful for me going forward. 

[Just Bob]

While it is possible that NGC really did "do you dirty," the more likely scenario is that they saw something that they felt was damaging your coin - possibly PVC, as others have suggested - and, in removing the contaminant, uncovered signs of cleaning.

[Coinbuf]

I think it would be correct to edit/change the title of your thread.   I understand your displeasure with the outcome; however, I do not see NCS using any restoration techniques or products that would have resulted in the now obvious hairlines.   As others have opined the most likely scenario is that during the restoration the old cleaning was uncovered.

[JT2]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:41 PM, Coinbuf said:

I do not see NCS using any restoration techniques or products that would have resulted in the now obvious hairlines.   As others have opined the most likely scenario is that during the restoration the old cleaning was uncovered.

The CoinBuff is correct.  Conservation does not constitute "CLEANED".  this happened prior to them conserving your coin and it has been "restored" to the best possible condition.  the cleaning happened years before and will still be present when conserved..

[LISA B]

Hello,

Just Bob is correct.  

[MatthewDM11]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:34 PM, Just Bob said:

While it is possible that NGC really did "do you dirty," the more likely scenario is that they saw something that they felt was damaging your coin - possibly PVC, as others have suggested - and, in removing the contaminant, uncovered signs of cleaning.

I wish I was more prudent and took pictures of the coin prior to sending it in. I will do that moving forward with PCGS. The thing that frustrates me the most is that the coin didn’t have pvc or grime or toning or anything that would prevent graders from seeing signs of cleaning prior to conversation. I purchased this coin at an estate sale in a nice holder. The strike and details were clear. 

[VKurtB]

Impossible to convince. Bad sign. 

[Coinbuf]

On 11/18/2022 at 7:51 AM, MatthewDM11 said:

I wish I was more prudent and took pictures of the coin prior to sending it in. I will do that moving forward with PCGS. The thing that frustrates me the most is that the coin didn’t have pvc or grime or toning or anything that would prevent graders from seeing signs of cleaning prior to conversation. I purchased this coin at an estate sale in a nice holder. The strike and details were clear. 

I think you are confusing two issues, the likely scenario is that NCS was suggested because NGC could not have slabbed the coin due to whatever issue or environmental problem the coin had.   That does not mean that NGC did not see the cleaning prior to suggesting conservation, only that the coin might have been returned in a body bag without the conservation.   You can choose to use this experience and learn that it may be prudent to ask questions before you authorize any procedures in the future.

In the end you asked for an opinion, and you got one, not liking it is just one side of TPG grading.

[MatthewDM11]

@Coinbuf I agree.

[EagleRJO]

Do the TPGs still return coins that can not be slabbed in "body bags"?

[Sandon]

 Yes. As in your photo the "bag" is actually a flip that includes a grading service tag stating why the coin couldn't be encapsulated. 

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm not an expert on these procedures, but I do not believe that with business booming that NGC would have knowingly steered you into something just to make a few bucks.

[VKurtB]

On 11/18/2022 at 1:49 PM, Sandon said:

 Yes. As in your photo the "bag" is actually a flip that includes a grading service tag stating why the coin couldn't be encapsulated. 

Some items return in those, others in Details hard slabs. 

[VKurtB]

I received the very same letter from NGC several submissions ago. NGC had preliminarily graded the coin in question a MS66. But the letter said NGC “believed”, with no guarantee, that conservation MIGHT help the coin. I agreed, and knew what they meant. I told them to go ahead. That coin is now in an NGC MS66 CAMEO holder. “Yo payz yo Money and yo takes yo chances.”

Edited November 18, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:49 PM, Sandon said:

 Yes. As in your photo the "bag" is actually a flip that includes a grading service tag stating why the coin couldn't be encapsulated. 

Interesting Sandon.  I have and intend to keep virtually my entire collection as raw coins or in OGP, except ones I purchase slabbed, so I have not encountered getting coins back in "body bags", and it's not likely to happen any time soon.  It kind of looks like the entire submittal return (coin flip, tag and NGC card) is placed in a poly bag sealed closed with scotch tape.  I had heard that the TPGs may have changed, or maybe are reconsidering, that method of returning coins somewhat due to the appropriate but negative connotation associated with that name.

Edited November 19, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:41 PM, EagleRJO said:

Interesting Sandon.  I have and intent to keep virtually my entire collection as raw coins or in OGP, except ones I purchase slabbed, so I have not encountered getting coins back in "body bags", and it's not likely to happen any time soon.  It kind of looks like the entire submittal return (coin flip, tag and NGC card) is placed in a poly bag sealed closed with scotch tape.  I had heard that the TPGs may have changed or maybe are reconsidering that method of returning coins somewhat due to the appropriate but negative connotation associated with that name.

The TPGS firms have never referred to those as “body bags”. Collectors and dealers get ALL the credit/blame for that. Dealers actually most of all. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/18/2022 at 4:05 PM, VKurtB said:

The TPGS firms have never referred to those as “body bags”. Collectors and dealers get ALL the credit/blame for that. Dealers actually most of all. 

Yes, I know.  I had heard that TPGs becoming aware of how collectors were referring to those returned submittals was what prompted the discussion of perhaps changing something due to that negative connotation.

[Sandon]

   @EagleRJO--In the early years of grading services, coins that had any impairment, including being "cleaned", were not encapsulated but were returned in flips.  The somewhat morbid terminology of "slabs" and "body bags" began at that time, with collectors and (especially) dealers complaining that their coins had been "body bagged" for some trivial reason. Details grading and encapsulation for impaired but genuine and unaltered coins didn't start until some years later, initially with the small ANACS holders.  For a while PCGS would encapsulate impaired coins with no grade at all in a holder identifying the coin by denomination, date, mint and variety with no grade and the description "Genuine". Nowadays both NGC and PCGS will encapsulate and details grade nearly all genuine coins, except for coins that whose dates, mintmarks or other vital features have been altered to defraud. NGC will not encapsulate coins with "altered surfaces" and, as I recall, neither NGC nor PCGS will encapsulate a coin with a "peeling lamination" that might come off.

   @VKurtB--Coins returned in "Details hard slabs" have, by definition, been encapsulated!

   

[VKurtB]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:22 PM, Sandon said:

   @EagleRJO--In the early years of grading services, coins that had any impairment, including being "cleaned", were not encapsulated but were returned in flips.  The somewhat morbid terminology of "slabs" and "body bags" began at that time, with collectors and (especially) dealers complaining that their coins had been "body bagged" for some trivial reason. Details grading and encapsulation for impaired but genuine and unaltered coins didn't start until some years later, initially with the small ANACS holders.  For a while PCGS would encapsulate impaired coins with no grade at all in a holder identifying the coin by denomination, date, mint and variety with no grade and the description "Genuine". Nowadays both NGC and PCGS will encapsulate and details grade nearly all genuine coins, except for coins that whose dates, mintmarks or other vital features have been altered to defraud. NGC will not encapsulate coins with "altered surfaces" and, as I recall, neither NGC nor PCGS will encapsulate a coin with a "peeling lamination" that might come off.

   @VKurtB--Coins returned in "Details hard slabs" have, by definition, been encapsulated!

   

True, just not in the way the submitter had hoped.