Ike prototype knowledge 0

[foundit]

71s like prototype

All ike types

71ikes

76ikes all types

How to tell 71s prototype

[foundit]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:50 PM, foundit said:

71s like prototype

All ike types

71ikes

76ikes all types

How to tell 71s prototype

 

[foundit]

Trying to find out if I have a 71s proto type there is a film on those that I have

[Fenntucky Mike]

From the Ike Group.

EDIT: Link to the website. https://ikegroup.info/prototype.htm 

OBSERVATIONS

-          The prototype is 24.3 gm and 1.50 inches in diameter.

-          Its reeding is identical to that on low relief 1971-S silver business strike Ikes (“Blue Ikes”).

-          It appears to be struck in high relief on both sides.

-          The fields are semi-prooflike, the rims are perfect and square, and the central devices and the Earth have variable and crude cameo.  There are fine die polish lines on both sides.

-          The obverse letters and numbers are somewhat different than all such on the high relief 1971-S Ike (silver) proof and likewise somewhat different than all such on the 1970 obverse Galvano3.

-          In the main, the prototype’s obverse letters and numbers appear more elegant and have lighter serifs.

-          Notably, the R’s left leg is almost a “Peg Leg”, associated with coarse die abrasions that run from under the foot of the left leg to Ike’s hairline.

-          Ike’s hair is different than on any other Ike obverse design.  His ear is slightly different.

-          The reverse letters and numbers are essentially identical to all such on the ’71-S Proof and the 1970 Galvano.

-          The prototype’s Earth has heavy crude cameo which almost obscures three barely visible in-relief islands that contrast with the incuse “mega island” of the 1971-S high relief proof.  The prototype’s Earth seems very similar to the Galvano’s Earth and could be identical.

-          The lunar craters on the prototype have the same general configuration as those on the Proof and Galvano but lack many of the details of the Galvano’s craters and lack both design details and added art-work details seen on the 1971-S proof craters.

On 10/8/2022 at 12:52 PM, foundit said:

Trying to find out if I have a 71s proto type there is a film on those that I have

You probably know this already but the chances of someone finding one of these is pretty much zero, and finding multiples is zero unless your Gasparro's heir and he snuck a few out of the mint. From what I read anyway. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike

[foundit]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:23 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

From the Ike Group.

OBSERVATIONS

-          The prototype is 24.3 gm and 1.50 inches in diameter.

-          Its reeding is identical to that on low relief 1971-S silver business strike Ikes (“Blue Ikes”).

-          It appears to be struck in high relief on both sides.

-          The fields are semi-prooflike, the rims are perfect and square, and the central devices and the Earth have variable and crude cameo.  There are fine die polish lines on both sides.

-          The obverse letters and numbers are somewhat different than all such on the high relief 1971-S Ike (silver) proof and likewise somewhat different than all such on the 1970 obverse Galvano3.

-          In the main, the prototype’s obverse letters and numbers appear more elegant and have lighter serifs.

-          Notably, the R’s left leg is almost a “Peg Leg”, associated with coarse die abrasions that run from under the foot of the left leg to Ike’s hairline.

-          Ike’s hair is different than on any other Ike obverse design.  His ear is slightly different.

-          The reverse letters and numbers are essentially identical to all such on the ’71-S Proof and the 1970 Galvano.

-          The prototype’s Earth has heavy crude cameo which almost obscures three barely visible in-relief islands that contrast with the incuse “mega island” of the 1971-S high relief proof.  The prototype’s Earth seems very similar to the Galvano’s Earth and could be identical.

-          The lunar craters on the prototype have the same general configuration as those on the Proof and Galvano but lack many of the details of the Galvano’s craters and lack both design details and added art-work details seen on the 1971-S proof craters.

You probably know this already but the chances of someone finding one of these is pretty much zero, and finding multiples is zero unless your Gasparro's heir and he snuck a few out of the mint. From what I read anyway. 

I'm gonna have to wiegh it

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:38 PM, foundit said:

I'm gonna have to wiegh it

Tolerance for 71-S Ike's is +/- .984g from a nominal planchette weight of 24.592g, if your Ike's weigh exactly 24.3g it doesn't mean they are a match, really doesn't mean anything other than they are within normal tolerance. But it is good to check. From what I read elsewhere, and if the diagnostics I posted above are correct, the main difference is in the relief, appearance of the fields, and several other die indicators. If you could post clear, cropped images of both sides of the coin so that others can look and give input, that would be a good start.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:23 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

You probably know this already but the chances of someone finding one of these is pretty much zero, and finding multiples is zero unless your Gasparro's heir and he snuck a few out of the mint.

Pretty funny stuff, and impressive knowledge about a very particular Ike. I know who to ask if I have any questions about Ike's in the future. 

[RWB]

The Eisenhower "prototype" stuff comes from one isolated comment in a mint document. The balance of documents have not, to my knowledge, been examined, and no complete and careful analysis has been published by anyone. Thus, the special name presently has no real meaning or firm connection to fact.

Edited October 8, 2022 by RWB

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/8/2022 at 5:33 PM, EagleRJO said:

Pretty funny stuff, and impressive knowledge about a very particular Ike. I know who to ask if I have any questions about Ike's in the future. 

I'm not an Ike collector, I just found some info that I felt was relevant and reposted it here for the OP and others to see.  I'll add the link to the Ike Group website in my first post, forgot to do that.

I agree with Roger in that the prototype designation seems unsubstantiated at this point based on the few minutes I've spent reading about it but, at the very least, if the diagnostics above are correct it is a variety. A VERY rare variety apparently. 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike
Grammar

[VKurtB]

On 10/8/2022 at 3:38 PM, foundit said:

I'm gonna have to wiegh it

Weighing it proves noting. 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/8/2022 at 5:57 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'm not an Ike collector, I just found some info that I felt was relevant and reposted it here for the OP and others to see.  I'll add the link to the Ike Group website in my first post, forgot to do that.

Well at least you knew to look for that info and posted it, which is half the battle, however unlikely it's a match. I hope he does get to say he "foundit". 

[VKurtB]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

Well at least you knew to look for that info and posted it, which is half the battle, however unlikely it's a match. I hope he does get to say he "foundit". 

A few years back, I was judging exhibits for the Maryland State Association at Baltimore, and somebody had some special presidential “blue Ikes” with special packaging and a facsimile letter with a Nixon signature. They were absolutely 1971-S Ikes but could that occasion be attached to these prototypes in some way? There was no opportunity to examine the reverses up close. 

[foundit]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:54 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Tolerance for 71-S Ike's is +/- .984g from a nominal planchette weight of 24.592g, if your Ike's weigh exactly 24.3g it doesn't mean they are a match, really doesn't mean anything other than they are within normal tolerance. But it is good to check. From what I read elsewhere, and if the diagnostics I posted above are correct, the main difference is in the relief, appearance of the fields, and several other die indicators. If you could post clear, cropped images of both sides of the coin so that others can look and give input, that would be a good start.

ill put some pics out later today around 6pm east coast time

thx

[Taylor7]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:50 PM, VKurtB said:

A few years back, I was judging exhibits for the Maryland State Association at Baltimore, and somebody had some special presidential “blue Ikes” with special packaging and a facsimile letter with a Nixon signature. They were absolutely 1971-S Ikes but could that occasion be attached to these prototypes in some way? There was no opportunity to examine the reverses up close. 

Do you remember if it actually had the S mint mark? I think Judd lists a 71 proof with no S as a pattern or presentation piece

[J P M]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:17 AM, foundit said:

ill put some pics out later today around 6pm east coast time

thx

Welcome foundit .. Cool I would like to see them. 

 

On 10/9/2022 at 5:46 PM, Taylor7 said:

Do you remember if it actually had the S mint mark? I think Judd lists a 71 proof with no S as a pattern or presentation piece

Welcome Taylor....Who is Judd ?

[foundit]

On 10/9/2022 at 5:46 PM, Taylor7 said:

Do you remember if it actually had the S mint mark? I think Judd lists a 71 proof with no S as a pattern or presentation piece

Yes I have a  few s's diff Earth's,and have had many others this year 71 and this is the only one with these types of letters and it has a mirror finish , I've had proofs ,but not with type of finish

[Taylor7]

On 10/9/2022 at 5:10 PM, J P M said:

Welcome foundit .. Cool I would like to see them. 

 

Welcome Taylor....Who is Judd ?

Thanks!

Judd wrote the book on Pattern coins, usually if you get one graded it will have Judd-#### on the label. I'm still not clear on the difference between patterns, prototypes, and trial strikes. Website below is also useful. 

https://www.amazon.com/United-States-Pattern-Coins-Experimental/dp/0794818234/ref=sr_1_2?qid=1665355912&refinements=p_27%3AJ.+Hewitt+Judd&s=books&sr=1-2&text=J.+Hewitt+Judd

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/

[DWLange]

Been wrote the Judd book, though it was published under Judd's name because he owned the coins.

[RWB]

On 10/9/2022 at 7:17 PM, DWLange said:

Been wrote the Judd book,

Mr. Lange is referring to Wally Breen's little half-sister, Jelly Been who soon thereafter gave up numismatics to run the only turtle ranch in Montana.

Edited October 10, 2022 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2022 at 4:46 PM, Taylor7 said:

Do you remember if it actually had the S mint mark? I think Judd lists a 71 proof with no S as a pattern or presentation piece

They had the ‘S’ and were much nicer than run-of-the-mill 1971-S blue Ike’s. 

[Taylor7]

ah, just checked my Judd book and I was thinking of the '76

[foundit]

These are three of the 71s Ike's I have -what grades would they get,in person there is some die things going on ear,eye ,hair and chars.

[GoldFinger1969]

I wonder how much of the interest in Ikes -- and other coins -- is because they were under-collected in the past and are "cheap" compared to other coins ?

I'm seeing "cheap rotation" in real estate, with higher-end homes getting no interest but lower-priced condos and homes for $150,000 - $300,000 getting interest as the cost of money has skyrocketed in a year.

[VKurtB]

On 10/11/2022 at 10:30 AM, foundit said:

These are three of the 71s Ike's I have -what grades would they get,in person there is some die things going on ear,eye ,hair and chars.

These are not exceptional enough to be grading candidates. 

[RWB]

There is more info in the Eisenhower Dollar program files in NARA, College Park. But to my knowledge none of the "Ike people" have accessed the documents or made photos/scans. Without those files being completely and expertly examined, the entire "prototype" tale is just a cute anecdote and price-pumper.

(If someone copied the files, please let me know. I'd like to get a copy for my database.}

Edited October 11, 2022 by RWB

[RWB]

On 10/11/2022 at 11:30 AM, foundit said:

These are three of the 71s Ike's I have -what grades would they get

None are worth the cost of "grading" -- not even by a local landscaper. [Put the money saved toward buying real camera to take coin photos.]

Edited October 13, 2022 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 10/13/2022 at 9:08 AM, RWB said:

None are worth the cost of "grading" -- not even by a local landscaper. [Put the money saved toward buying real camera to take coin photos.]

Excellent advice. A nice camera sinking fund. 

[foundit]

Forget prototype thing, just wanted some op's on grading.     

Thx

 

[VKurtB]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:36 AM, foundit said:

Forget prototype thing, just wanted some op's on grading.     

Thx

 

Understand that FOR ME, way more than half the coins that HAVE BEEN GRADED, never should have been. And that is no exaggeration. 

[foundit]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Understand that FOR ME, way more than half the coins that HAVE BEEN GRADED, never should have been. And that is no exaggeration. 

4sure