Is the CDN Bid Price the Retail Price? 1 1

[Tyrock]

Visited a well established, long time coin dealer today and he had an interesting opinion. He said that the CDN bid price is now the retail price of a coin. Not being a dealer, I always knew it as the wholesale price of a coin. Do you agree that the CDN bid is now the retail price of a coin in this changing market?

Edited October 9, 2021 by Tyrock

[RWB]

There is no "retail" price for a coin. Every coin price is negotiable -- same as at the camel market.

[Tyrock]

Point taken, but a coin sells at some point for a price in the marketplace. And everyone knows that there's a wholesale price for a coin and a retail price. I have an old Greysheet from 2020 and the bid price for an MS-66 1880 S Morgan Dollar is $180.00. I also  have the latest CPG Coin and Currency Market Review. The retail for that coin in the latest issue is $332.00. If I'm selling that coin I'm not likely to ask $180.00 for it. Granted, the Greysheet is from March 2020 and the current bid would be  different. I'm just curious if anyone agrees with the dealer that bid is the new retail. I personally find that hard to agree with, but I'm sure that some coins do sell at bid.  

Edited October 8, 2021 by Tyrock

[Oldhoopster]

I recall that when the Graysheet changed hands a few years ago, there were discussions that the prices were closer to retail.  Not sure if this was adjusted or not.

Sorry, no hard data or links so take it for what's worth

BTW: Heritage Auctions has a section called Price Guide for Numismatists.  They have a Heritage guide, a PCGS Guide, and CDN Prices. Not sure if the CDN values are the same as the subscription values.

[RWB]

There is also "The Hitchhiker's Guide." But it's improbable you'll find it in a whale.

[numisport]

Will that dealer sell you an 80-S for CDN bid ? 

Maybe but due to the huge numbers of those coins available you will get one of the worst examples there are. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by numisport

[EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER]

From what I've seen in the market lately, high quality material is selling well in excess of GS CPG and wayyyyyy beyond wholesale.  I didn't think GS was even using the bid/ask format any longer?  No more bid/ask columns in the CDN that I get every month.  I do believe blue sheet pricing is still considered bid for NGC/PCGS and w/CAC if applicable.  I've seen generic run of the mill pieces generally are between wholesale and CPG.  Dogs often at discount to wholesale, of varying proportion depending on "doggyness."  If a dealer was willing to sell me what I wanted from him/her at "bid," I'd probably buy a lot more than I am now.

Funny enough though, it seems that when it comes time for a dealer to buy in face to face situations they often want to offer sub-wholesale for everything,  regardless of quality, down to 50% or even less.  I've seen many a person at shows or in LCS's getting straight murdered when selling.  If you actually know what you have any can argue the point some dealers will budge to something closer to reasonable, but a lot of people just don't do that.

I'm not dealer bashing.  I know they have to profit.  Its a business and I get that.  TBH if they get over on some other dude and I end up benefitting by buying that coin at a reasonable price than great for me too.  Its not the dealer's responsibility to argue for the seller/buyer.  They should be ethical but that's relevant isn't it.

[numisport]

What you are seeing is a transformation of the coin marketplace due to the proliferation of auction services. Dealers must compete with collectors to fill want lists. Many dealers are confounded by this as the good ole high end collector coins just are not in most inventories right now. So in order to sell these coins they will have to buy at an artificially lowball bid hoping you need the money bad enough that you can't wait for auction turnaround time. Please tell me how wrong I am. 

[zadok]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:54 AM, numisport said:

What you are seeing is a transformation of the coin marketplace due to the proliferation of auction services. Dealers must compete with collectors to fill want lists. Many dealers are confounded by this as the good ole high end collector coins just are not in most inventories right now. So in order to sell these coins they will have to buy at an artificially lowball bid hoping you need the money bad enough that you can't wait for auction turnaround time. Please tell me how wrong I am. 

...not what im seeing...i dont see a proliferation of auction services, the number of high end auction houses seems stable as are their services, what i see is a proliferation of prices for all of the choice n better coins...its called competition n the free market place is setting the prices based upon supply n demand...also compounding the issue is there seems to be more money available to be spent, richer collectors or more incentivized collectors or both??...whats happened over the past three decades is that the collector is not as dependent on the dealer to acquire the coins, the collector can just do it themselves with with direct access to the auctions (perhaps this is what u meant as proliferation of auction services?)...in either case the dealer is going to have to compete on a real time basis with the collector n either pay more for inventory or accept a lower profit margin to maintain the balance of doing the same levels of business...but this has been evolving for at least 20-30 years now...what i am seeing is a proliferation of dealer to dealer transactions as well as the collector to auction house transactions...i dont think that dealers offering lowball prices to buy is going to be their long term salvation, there's just too much competition for the better stuff out there....perhaps we r both saying the same thing but seeing it a bit differently.....

[numisport]

On 10/18/2021 at 12:16 PM, zadok said:

...not what im seeing...i dont see a proliferation of auction services, the number of high end auction houses seems stable as are their services, what i see is a proliferation of prices for all of the choice n better coins...its called competition n the free market place is setting the prices based upon supply n demand...also compounding the issue is there seems to be more money available to be spent, richer collectors or more incentivized collectors or both??...whats happened over the past three decades is that the collector is not as dependent on the dealer to acquire the coins, the collector can just do it themselves with with direct access to the auctions (perhaps this is what u meant as proliferation of auction services?)...in either case the dealer is going to have to compete on a real time basis with the collector n either pay more for inventory or accept a lower profit margin to maintain the balance of doing the same levels of business...but this has been evolving for at least 20-30 years now...what i am seeing is a proliferation of dealer to dealer transactions as well as the collector to auction house transactions...i dont think that dealers offering lowball prices to buy is going to be their long term salvation, there's just too much competition for the better stuff out there....perhaps we r both saying the same thing but seeing it a bit differently.....

Yes we are basically on the same page. But there really are more auction venues now than there were when I started collecting back in the eighties. That said I too look for high end coins every slot I fill and most end up being CAC verified coins.

[zadok]

On 10/18/2021 at 12:46 PM, numisport said:

Yes we are basically on the same page. But there really are more auction venues now than there were when I started collecting back in the eighties. That said I too look for high end coins every slot I fill and most end up being CAC verified coins.

ditto here id guess 80% of my US coins r CAC....yea if u go back 40 years there r more major auction houses now, but several of the big players then merged or bought each other out n a few didnt survive the internet transition...

[VKurtB]

There is no “The Market”, even with online sellers. There are local markets only. You might think sell through prices on eBay establish a “market”. I virtually never pay anywhere NEAR eBay sell through. I operate in fully a buyer’s market, and always have. I don’t pay Greysheet and never have. I pay waaaaaaay below it.

Hell itself would completely freeze over before I would ever pay $300 or anything close to it for a common date MS66 Morgan. Ain’t happening. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[numisport]

On 10/19/2021 at 1:58 PM, VKurtB said:

There is no “The Market”, even with online sellers. There are local markets only. You might think sell through prices on eBay establish a “market”. I virtually never pay anywhere NEAR eBay sell through. I operate in fully a buyer’s market, and always have. I don’t pay Greysheet and never have. I pay waaaaaaay below it.

Hell itself would completely freeze over before I would ever pay $300 or anything close to it for a common date MS66 Morgan. Ain’t happening. 

As a dealer your inventory would be pretty sparse 

[EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER]

On 10/18/2021 at 12:46 PM, numisport said:

Yes we are basically on the same page. But there really are more auction venues now than there were when I started collecting back in the eighties. That said I too look for high end coins every slot I fill and most end up being CAC verified coins.

I started in the mid-90’s and have been very off and on but I know what you’re saying. It was catalogs, teletrade, etc.. Gave way to ebay and other websites like Heritage. There seems to be no shortage of suppliers now but there sure does seem to be a shortage of quality material. Sale prices have been blowing me away as of late. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2021 at 1:31 PM, numisport said:

As a dealer your inventory would be pretty sparse 

I’m a collector, and my “inventory” isn’t the least bit sparse, thank you very much. 

[EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER]

On 10/19/2021 at 1:58 PM, VKurtB said:

There is no “The Market”, even with online sellers. There are local markets only. You might think sell through prices on eBay establish a “market”. I virtually never pay anywhere NEAR eBay sell through. I operate in fully a buyer’s market, and always have. I don’t pay Greysheet and never have. I pay waaaaaaay below it.

Hell itself would completely freeze over before I would ever pay $300 or anything close to it for a common date MS66 Morgan. Ain’t happening. 

I feel you on the Morgans but it’s happening nonetheless. I helped a buddy work his table two weeks ago at the local show and common date 66’s are getting $300 PLUS all morning long. Demand is insatiable. I’ve been seeing things I’ve never would’ve imagined just five years ago.  Would I pay $300 for a 66 Morgan?  Probably not unless it had that eye appeal. But a s-ton of others are. In the last year I’ve walked about 25 show floors and half the time I left with a pocket full of cash because there simply was nothing of quality that I could either flip at those crazy prices or justify adding to my personal collection.

If you woulda told me I’d have paid $550 for a 66 peace dollar (23) a few years ago I’d have laughed to death and yet I just did cuz that’s what it took to get the coin. Crazy thing is research showed that in the last couple of months a bunch of others did the same. It’s nuts. 

I give you nothing but the highest respect if you’re getting quality pieces below sheet. That’s not an option in my local market. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:19 PM, EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER said:

I feel you on the Morgans but it’s happening nonetheless. I helped a buddy work his table two weeks ago at the local show and common date 66’s are getting $300 PLUS all morning long. Demand is insatiable. I’ve been seeing things I’ve never would’ve imagined just five years ago.  Would I pay $300 for a 66 Morgan?  Probably not unless it had that eye appeal. But a s-ton of others are. In the last year I’ve walked about 25 show floors and half the time I left with a pocket full of cash because there simply was nothing of quality that I could either flip at those crazy prices or justify adding to my personal collection.

If you woulda told me I’d have paid $550 for a 66 peace dollar (23) a few years ago I’d have laughed to death and yet I just did cuz that’s what it took to get the coin. Crazy thing is research showed that in the last couple of months a bunch of others did the same. It’s nuts. 

I give you nothing but the highest respect if you’re getting quality pieces below sheet. That’s not an option in my local market. 

I have, I am, and I do. I buy almost exclusively at in-person live auctions. One recent, VERY recent buy (non Morgan), was a 1951 boxed proof set, with all 5 coins gorgeous. I paid $170. Original box, 8 cent Presidential stamp and original address on it, to Queens, NY. The half might make cameo. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:21 PM, VKurtB said:

I have, I am, and I do. I buy almost exclusively at in-person live auctions

Ahhhh. Ok. Yes that would be THE route in order to achieve those kinds of results. 👍🏻
Unfortunately my locale doesn’t offer up those opportunities but a couple times of the year. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:21 PM, VKurtB said:

I have, I am, and I do. 

 

On 10/19/2021 at 2:26 PM, EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER said:

Ahhhh. Ok. Yes that would be THE route in order to achieve those kinds of results. 👍🏻
Unfortunately my locale doesn’t offer up those opportunities but a couple times of the year. 

My new one doesn’t either. I drive 740 miles back to Pennsylvania. 

[EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:27 PM, VKurtB said:

 

My new one doesn’t either. I drive 740 miles back to Pennsylvania. 

Ok. Lemme pick your brain here if you don’t mind. Given that you have that drive and the  costs involved for transport, food, maybe lodging, and all the “fun” expenses that seem to occur on the road, do those costs rise to the level that they’d cancel out your savings on the coin purchase?

Granted, if your buying big dollar pieces the savings are totally justified. But how many common date Morgan 66’s (using your example above) do you have to buy before it would’ve been the same to pay a premium through other venues?

Please don’t think me argumentative. I always try to learn from those with a niche as they’re usually the smartest and most successful. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:34 PM, EARLY-COMMEM-HUNTER said:

Ok. Lemme pick your brain here if you don’t mind. Given that you have that drive and the  costs involved for transport, food, maybe lodging, and all the “fun” expenses that seem to occur on the road, do those costs rise to the level that they’d cancel out your savings on the coin purchase?

Granted, if your buying big dollar pieces the savings are totally justified. But how many common date Morgan 66’s (using your example above) do you have to buy before it would’ve been the same to pay a premium through other venues?

Please don’t think me argumentative. I always try to learn from those with a niche as they’re usually the smartest and most successful. 

I still have family, and I still have property, in south central Pennsylvania. The best most active auction house for coins around me, just near Guntersville Lake, Alabama, ALSO makes regular buying runs to south central Pennsylvania. One local club, the Gadsden/Rainbow City Coin Club, has a massive coin auction EVERY Tuesday.

I’m heading out for York, PA bright and early this coming Friday morning. I’ll get to York about 7PM. At 7AM, I’ll be examining coins. By noon, I’m headed south. The family doesn’t figure in, but I’ll drive by the property. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[numisport]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:38 PM, VKurtB said:

 The family doesn’t figure in, but I’ll drive by the property. 

I can see you have your priorities straight and wish you luck.

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:22 PM, numisport said:

I can see you have your priorities straight and wish you luck.

The other thing you need to know about me is how much I utterly abhor doing business by mail and over the Internet. , I even DROP OFF PERSONALLY my coins for grading at NGC at major shows. I am just wired that way. Person to person, eyeball to eyeball. Even during the pandemic, whenever I could. I just can’t stand all that shipping garbage. I’d rather wait and do everything in person. 
 

Heading to my OTHER coin club tonight, Madison County (AL), even though Rainbow City is having an auction tonight. They’re weekly, Madison is monthly. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:22 PM, numisport said:

I can see you have your priorities straight and wish you luck.

I’ll go see my sister and her family the next trip up. She and her husband still have nine of my guns. They’ve been well cared for and not neglected. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[numisport]

On 10/19/2021 at 4:33 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ll go see my sister and her family the next trip up. She and her husband still have nine of my guns. They’ve been well cared for and not neglected. 

Now I am certain you have your priorities in order. Is this an odd antidote, I started collecting coins in the 80's and bought most of my guns in the 80's.

[VKurtB]

On 10/21/2021 at 2:02 PM, numisport said:

Now I am certain you have your priorities in order. Is this an odd antidote, I started collecting coins in the 80's and bought most of my guns in the 80's.

I need to sell off some guns. Too much duplication of purpose. I need 4 competition .22 rifles like I need another foot. Some were ones I won biathlons with. There is some nostalgia value, but my biathlon days are over and I didn’t keep any cross country skis. They somehow seemed less than useful in Alabama. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by VKurtB

[numisport]

On 10/21/2021 at 3:16 PM, VKurtB said:

I need to sell off some guns. Too much duplication of purpose. I need 4 competition .22 rifles like I need another foot. Some were ones I won biathlons with. There is some nostalgia value, but my biathlon days are over and I didn’t keep any cross country skis. They somehow seemed less than useful in Alabama. 

Yep I'm old school with my favorite .22 pistol being a High Standard Supermatic Citation again purchased around 1981. 

[Henri Charriere]

 

On 10/19/2021 at 3:38 PM, VKurtB said:

I still have family, and I still have property, in south central Pennsylvania. The best most active auction house for coins around me, just near Guntersville Lake, Alabama, ALSO makes regular buying runs to south central Pennsylvania. One local club, the Gadsden/Rainbow City Coin Club, has a massive coin auction EVERY Tuesday.

I’m heading out for York, PA bright and early this coming Friday morning. I’ll get to York about 7PM. At 7AM, I’ll be examining coins. By noon, I’m headed south. The family doesn’t figure in, but I’ll drive by the property. 

🐓:  I believe ol' wiley VKurtB pulled a fast one on us here with that totally unresponsive reply.

Q.A.:  I'd say that's a fair observation. The underlying question -- which he waltzed around admirably was, in pertinent part:  "... do those [over-the-road] costs rise to the level that they'd cancel out your savings on the coin purchase?" Me thinks this globe-trotting, "not an investor, I am a collector" is very much that indeed, but the border between collecting, and hoarding, is very often indistinguishable...

🐓: ...  and lost in the priceless devotion of a father for his son.   🤔 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Remove duplicate post

[7.jaguars]

Yes, the question or concern was a legitimate one. This fact dissuades from many purchases as these "extras" add up, sometimes considerably; for a single lot purchase just the gas and three McDonald's "Meals" would be a low estimate of $360 or so.....

[Hoghead515]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:59 AM, numisport said:

Yep I'm old school with my favorite .22 pistol being a High Standard Supermatic Citation again purchased around 1981. 

My favorite is a High Standard 22. Mines called "The Marshall" though. Best shooting pistol ive ever shot. I took my Concealed Carry class with it and was the only one in our class with a perfect score. I got higher calibers but I wanted to take it cause it shoots so good.